UK Knife Laws

Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Messages
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This really infurates me, and I don't even live there, Thank GOD! What a socialist hellhole.

I've said it before and it bears repeating: from the pre-eminent world Democracy, the birthplace of the Magna Carta, the fertile breeding ground of post-Greek Western Civilization as we know it, where the sun never sets on the British Empire, to: a 4th rate socialist-fascist pit, overrun by unchecked welfare sucking 3rd world illegal immigrants, and governed by an elite soft-headed bunch who think that banning "things" and arresting people for owning a piece of steel is the same as actually fighting crime. :mad: (OK, how do you really feel Norm? :))

Every_ citizen walking down a public street through a certain "arch" is detained if the thing detects metal on their body. Or the police walk up to people on the street and scan them with hand-held wands for metal. Then they have to empty their pockets. If they have a pocket knife they're arrested.

In addition they have indoctrination by propaganda of the school children, little Hitler Youth and Quisling adults who are encouraged to rat out people they know are carrying a pocket knife, taxpayers money spent on stings of cutlery shops, and "neighborhood policing teams" with the message "don't carry knives, don't use them illegally." Oh, can I carry my knife if I use it legally then?

I've heard that idiot "numpties" are carrying knives and causing problems, but then everyone has to suffer? Why would banning knives be any more successful than banning guns?

Apologies to Kronckew and Spiral and my other English friends, but I don't see how you stand it. (Says Norm who lives in the People's Republic of Kalifornia! ;) I've lost track of how many types of guns and knives I can't own. Maybe I'm mad because I see this as the next thing to come here???)

N.

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http://www.lancashire.police.uk/index.php?id=5640

Tackling Knives Action Plan - Lancashire
11 December 08
Superintendent Richard Spedding, the Constabulary’s lead on knife crime said: Lancashire being chosen as one of the ten forces by the Government has allowed us to develop our approach especially around the areas of prevention, enforcement and education and over the last six months have carried out a lot of work to tackle the issue.
"As a force, we recognise that knife crime is a growing problem in society and we are committed to proactively tackling this issue. We also recognise that we cannot tackle this on our own and we have developed excellent working relationships with groups like the NHS, trading standards, education, local and county councils and most importantly the public.
"In order to prevent knife related crime, we have to remove knives from the streets and stop people from carrying and using knives and bladed instruments to either cause harm or make threaten harm. Our neighbourhood policing teams are out spreading the message to people and community leaders about the dangers of carrying weapons. We would urge people to contact us or Crimestoppers if they know or suspect that people are arming themselves with a weapon.
"We have also looked at ways to break the chain and target people who are most vulnerable; those that are likely to carry knives. About a year ago a team of officers, working with the North West Ambulance Service, delivered a presentation to teenagers about the dangers of carrying knives. The success of Be Sharp Think Sharp has been superb and we have now rolled this out across the County to over 18,000 pupils.
"Ultimately, attitudes have to change and people have to take responsibility. Parents and peers have a role to play too in telling making sure young people do not carry weapons, let alone use them.
"We are also sensibly using stop and search powers to remove knives from the street (58 since April) along with the use of knife arches and search wands predominantly in city centres during busy periods.
"I would like to reassure the public that as a force, Lancashire is totally committed to tackling and reducing knife related incidents in the County and our message to people is always simple. Don’t carry knives, don’t use them illegally."
Below is a list of some of the schemes and initiatives that are taking place.
"Be Sharp Think Sharp" programme which is being rolled out across the county is making excellent progress, to date 89 secondary schools have had the joint working presentation by ARV and the Ambulance Service, 18,000 pupils have received this input.
A Media Campaign around Knife related incidents and Domestic Violence is to be launched mid December, focusing heavily on third party reporting.

Eastern Division in Accrington have carried out their first Flood Lit TKAP operation where by a key message was projected onto a building, complimented by a Metal Arch and a police presence (see attached photo) An informal questionnaire was carried out on 100 people and 76% of people questioned stated they felt safer. Another operation is planned for the 19th of December to coincide with pupils breaking up from School; key partners will be present to provide appropriate interventions.

Western Division together with Trading Standards have completed 38 test purchase visits (controlled use of children to test whether retailers will sell them knives) to retailers where in total 17 knives were sold. The first operation was in Sept had a 88% failure rate followed up by a further operation in November where the failure rate had improved to only 33%.

Preston has recently carried out a similar operation where they issued letters to 15 retailers prior to the Test Purchase operation and had only 2 sales. Western and Preston have further planned Test Purchase Operations planned for December and January 2009.
A total of well over 60,000 people have either passed through knife arches or inspected by wands with arches and wands regular ‘tools’ to divisional Nightsafe operations.
Stay Safe Be Safe initiative
– Central Division have completed 6 operations, 42 young persons were placed into Police Protection all of which were given a case conference and 22 out of those generated further actions by other agencies.
Regarding those arrested for being in possession of a bladed instrument, we have an 83% detection rate and 57% rate for charging.
Eastern division are commissioning a survey of all secondary school pupils regarding their experience of knife crime. This will compliment work ongoing in Preston.
The next round of the Lancashire Police Authority WAVE opinion survey (new year) will also include questions regarding knife crime.
Initial discussions have begun with the local NHS trust regarding accurate recording of victims who attend A & E departments. Chorley hospital has in place an agreement to report all knife related incidents to the police.
 
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you can of course carry an under 3 inch 'edged' non locking folder without any particular reason, subject to interpretation by the arresting officer, as long as it's not being used offensively. (the word self-defense does not exist, if you defend yourself, that is an offensive use). if your blade is 3.25 in. from the pivot to the point, and the edge is 3 in., the police may arrest you, but you may win your case after hiring a good lawyer and spending a few days in court (and jail). may not. court's definition of an edge may be interpreted differently than yours at their whim - to protect the 'people' and society.

you may carry a larger blade, locking or even fixed blade, with good reason as in if you need it on your job. however stopping anywhere en route to or from your job and home (ie. mc donalds or a gas station) invalidates that & you can be arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. you can of course explain yourself before a judge if a cop does not feel your reason to carry that 4 in. folder, or that 2 in. locking folder is good enough. it's the cops, judge who decide if your carry reason is good enough, not you. going down top the coast on a fishing trip? carrying bait, a few rods and tackle box with a fillet knife? stopped for gas on the way didn't you. got in a fender bender on the motorway? cop can arrest you for illegal possession and use of an offensive weapon. this of course goes on your record even if you convince a judge that you did not invalidate your carry reason by stopping at the gas station. if you get a particularly inflexible judge, you may get a few years in a cell with a muscled monster that thinks you are cute.

we get TV commercials urging people to turn in their neighbors all the time here, and the govt. is planning on national identity cards with full biometric details and your security history attached via a chip. the cops will be able to arrest & fine you if you don't have one on you when they stop & search you. they'll even charge us about $150 for the privledge. should, like speed trap cameras, be a good little earner.

stopping and searching minorities, even if they are in gang colors or hoods, is of course violating their rights and racially stereotyping, even in a neighbourhood where they may be the group doing all the crime, so police have to search an equivalent percentage of other racial groups to maintain fairness, fill out racial profiling forms to ensure they are searching a PC balance of racial types, and arrest an equivalent percentage of all groupings, so you may be the arrest they need to pad the stats. tough.

the UK is now proudly the most cctv'd country in the world. not only outside, but inside. they have not as yet started videoing inside public toilet stalls, but it has been proposed. homes are next, there's all kinds of anti-social behaviour that will protect the public from.

and they are trialling metal detector arches at train, bus and subway stations, even a legal knife will get you pulled from the queue and given the special attention your antisocial behaviour requires by an unsympathetic policeman with a quota.

welcome to 1984, george. just a few years late.

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oh, i forgot, the educational system of course, is a 'knife, gun, and drug free zone'.

to ensure that, school lockers are no longer provided. you get to carry your full load of books, athletic gear, etc. around with you all day. winter? want a coat? you must carry it with you as you don't have a locker. take it off in class? not allowed - it's against the rules to hang your coat on the back of your chair. coat hook racks are not provided as it causes class delays and arguments as children hang their coats up. any covering must be worn all day. sweating? tough. we must protect you from yourself. they also have the metal detectors at the entrances.

i walk the dogs about the time the kids go to school here, i see they stand at the bus stop in short sleeved school uniform shirts at an air temp of 32F (0C). as it's now getting even cooler they may occasionally wear a sweater that they can leave on all day. i asked them why they didn't wear a coat, got a reply about the 'rules' i mention in the above para.

that's one instance where i might agree with the school boards bubble wrapping the students for their own good. the bubble wrap would at least keep them warm. schools of course reduce the heating to save money.
 
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No worrys Norm Fire away, Weve had a very bizare run of Goverments who react in a knee jerk to sensational journalism about crime to show there doing something. While of course the active criminals tottaly disregard the new laws...:(

The poverty hitting some areas at time bieng due to massive job losses probably wont help improve matters either.:o

Sadley I cant find my magic wand at the momment, so not much I can do to alter the situation. I dont like it. But currently I have to live with it.

cheers,
Spiral
 
Wow, thanks Kronckew and Spiral, some of that is even more over the top than I had imagined. No coat hooks? No lockers? CCTV everywhere? TV spots urging folks to betray their neighbors? And what is this, if you _defend_ yourself that is an _offense_? Sorry, you just lost me there. Everywhere actually.

I truly believe that as with everything else, the Brits are leading the way. Only a matter of time before California and other liberal states follow suit, and then the rest of the USA to follow. Say by 2100 the whole western world will be just one big slave camp, with all of us protected to death, "for our own good." The nanny state as God.

Best,

Norm
 
here's another recent example, when you read between the lines of political anti-knife and anti-self defense spin, there was a kid's argument over a football, kid calls his dad (no.1), who comes over and assaults one of the other kids and takes his bike, then threatens the other kids dad (no.2) who had a beer bottle in his hand, dad no.1 goes home to get a club and attacks the other father (dad no.2) in the other fathers (no.2) own yard, a clear instance to me for self defense, he was advancing on the swordsman (dad 2) with intent to commit assault himself, the home-owner (dad 2) had a sword, probably near the door for just such an instance and grabbed it to defend himself and his family. sad the agressor dad no. 1 died, but it was not like he'd retreated and was attempting to get away. the man who died looks like someone against whom i'd pick up a sword myself, he looks like a rough character.

anyhow swordsman dad 2 gets convicted of manslaughter & will go to prison, if it hadn't been self defense, he'd have been convicted of murder. ah, well - better to go to jail for killing the attacker, than the attacker going to jail for beating your brains out. i also note the swordsman 'turned himself in' the next day. guess the police hadn't responded to the phone calls yet.

i still remember the classic spin prior to the recent curved sword ban fiasco where a teen's knife was described as a six inch samurai sword. wonder if this one was as well...

linky to bbc news article


.
 
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would be interested to see how knife crime in Glasgow etc. compares with Detroit & overal USA.
There is no direct comparison possible, because the mythical construct of "knife crime" - meaning any of various offenses such as homicide, robbery, assault, sexual assault, kidnapping etc. in which a knife is used - is an invention of the British media, which has now become firmly entrenched in popular and political thought. The same phenomenon exists in the US with respect to "assault rifles' - meaning any semi-automatic firearm, especially if possessed of such sinister characteristics as detachable magazines, flash hiders, or (horror of horrors) bayonet lugs.
The US does have volumes of statistics on types of crime with associated factors, including type of weapon used. A look at the FBI crime statistics shows 64 murders by "knives or cutting instruments" in all of Michigan (including Detroit) for 2007, 134 with "other [non-firearm] weapons, and 30 with "hands, fists, feet etc." In other words, human ingenuity being what it is, the choice of an instrumentality for the commission of crime is limited only by the laws of physics, not the laws of man.
Say by 2100 the whole western world will be just one big slave camp, with all of us protected to death, "for our own good." The nanny state as God.
The good news is that, barring tremendous advances in medicine, none of us need worry about being around to see the day:rolleyes:.
 
interesting, spiral. another article from aussieland

has some interesting stats in the comments re different locales.

i also note that in obama's home district in chicago, with some of the most restrictive gun and knife laws in the states, there were twice as many murders in a six month study period as there were U.S. soldiers killed in all of iraq during the same period; or in other words you are twice as likely to be killed in the anti-gun paradise of chicago as in iraq, even if you have a large 'shoot me' sign painted on you like our boys there do in their distinctive 'camouflage' that hilites them as not being locals (real camouflage would mean thobe, ghutra and flip-flops).

is o'bama going to pull out from chicago too?

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interesting stats, berkley. i note in one table that only 13% of all murders are done by a stranger. i also consider that all stats can be manipulated to say pretty much what you want. also interesting that chicago overall had 20.5 murders per 100,000, and my home city in alabama had 0.0 : we get to carry guns there ;) sorry chicago, object control ain't workin'.

more interesting stats:
ScreenShot001-3.jpg
 
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Thanks Berkley, I realise comparison of statistics is inherently flawed , I was just trying to get a flavour of crime levels re, stabbings in some of the rougher Brit. & American Citys.

I get the impresion Theres still much higher violence rates in City USA, just as well realy you havent yet got all our ridiculos laws. Hang onto your rights! Weve lost most of ours.

Interesting Kronkew, Thanks.

Spiral
 
"Like savages who believe that every misfortune results from their failure to do enough to please the gods, modern western culture believes every tragedy results from its failure to legislate enough". --Andy Barniskis
 
As another ex-pat Englander, I fully agree with your sentiments Norm. Everything you say is part of the reasons I left Police State England to settle in Canada.

Here is another story for you and as it happens, Devon and Cornwall Police were my local police force. As a pedant, I would also point out the 'scythe' is in fact a 'sickle'. I have a hand forged one and I brought it to Canada with me.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...logise-gardener-prosecuted-having-scythe.html

Judge orders court to apologise to gardener prosecuted for having a scythe
By Luke Salkeld

They are the essential tools of Peter Drew's trade.
But in the eyes of the police, the scythe, axes and knives that officers found in his van when they stopped it were something far more sinister.
And despite the professional gardener's desperate attempts to explain that he needed them for clearing rough ground, he was arrested on suspicion of having offensive weapons.

article-1075572-02F2C5A600000578-692_468x312.jpg

At the sharp end: Peter Drew with his scythe and other tools which police feared were weapons.

A judge ordered the prosecution to issue an apology
Mr Drew, 49, then endured eight months of court appearances and the threat of a trial hanging over his head.
But the Crown Prosecution Service withdrew the case moments before a trial was due to begin.
The CPS offered no evidence after Mr Drew, who denied having offensive weapons, produced references from customers, including several solicitors.
Judge Paul Darlow ordered prosecution barrister Philip Lee to issue a public apology to Mr Drew and asked the CPS to do the same.
At last week's hearing at Truro Crown Court in Cornwall, the judge said: 'I want to find out why we've got to the start of the trial and the CPS are suddenly saying, "Oops". I don't think the CPS can blame if they leave it to the last minute to make up their minds. We despair of trying to run these courts in any sort of efficient way.
'Try telling this to jurors who come from their jobs and their homes, quite apart from any trauma that Mr Drew has been through.'
Prosecutor Mr Lee responded: 'On behalf of the CPS I apologise that it has taken this long. Some decisions are very obvious and some less so. I wouldn't say this was an obvious decision.'

After the brief hearing, Mr Drew, of Heamoor near Penzance, Cornwall, said the last eight months had been 'a nightmare'.
He added: 'The whole thing knocked me for six - I've lived in Heamoor all my life and when the case was reported in the papers, people were asking me what it was all about and I didn't want to say anything because the case was still going on.
'I'm disgusted, really. Now I just want to clear my name so everyone knows I haven't been carrying knives illegally.'

A spokesman for Devon and Cornwall Police said Mr Drew was found with a bread knife and a machete behind the sun visor of his van.
Officers also discovered two axes in driver's door pockets and a scythe in the passenger footwell.
He said: 'An officer might assume a professional gardener would keep his tools in a bag in the back of the van.
'He explained that the knives were for business purposes but the officers felt this was for the courts to decide.'

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Sounds to me he is blade aware and like most of the folks on Bladeforums.
 
well, i agree with the prosecutor, we need to go after these malcontents, why, look at him, camouflage jacket and just look at that scythe in his hand - death personified, why he could put someone's eye out with that! gardeners, after this mistaken decision by this out of touch judge are obviously in need of targeting by the police to ensure this class of miscreants does not continue to threaten the public. it was a hard call for the crown prosecutor to make after all.

as stated by the well trained policeman who first arrested the perpetrator of this heinous crime against the people, a true gardening gentleman would have place all his nicely cleaned and polished custom made offensive weapons in a proper combination locked safe in the back of his van, with appropriate warning signs on the inside and outside of the van. why, i bet he didn't even have liability insurance on the weapons. we must lobby to ensure the law is changed to cover these dangerous implements and protect the public from harm. why couldn't he use more appropriate dull plastic tools? these are freely available from 'toys-r-us' and the like.
00A0086.jpg
targettoy.png


i won't be satisfied until all our children are protected from all possible harm, both internal and external, mental and physical. we obviously need more laws, more bureaucrats, and more taxes, along with appropriate PC ZT educational policies to turn us all into nice socialist cookie cutter stamped out copies of the ideal grateful citizen that votes the way we tell them is best for them.
bubble-wrap.jpg

the ideal. minus his bubble wrap hat, gloves and goloshes which are required if he actually gets out of bed.
 
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as stated by the well trained policeman who first arrested the perpetrator of this heinous crime against the people, a true gardening gentleman would have place all his nicely cleaned and polished custom made offensive weapons in a proper combination locked safe in the back of his van, with appropriate warning signs on the inside and outside of the van.

why, i bet he didn't even have liability insurance on the weapons. we must lobby to ensure the law is changed to cover these dangerous implements and protect the public from harm.

In Aussieland it is not a reasonable excuse to the police to physically possess a knife in a public place for self-defence purposes.

Recently politicians in the state New South Wales have made it a criminal offense to carry knives in a vehicles' glovebox, under seats or in door pockets.

Perhaps like their sporting shooter counterparts who when traveling with firearms, knife users must be expected to carry them in a locked container in the trunk of the vehicle in a 'safe' state?

It seems the only legal place to have them is in the home so long as you don't use them to defend yourself or family.
 
Every_ citizen walking down a public street through a certain "arch" is detained if the thing detects metal on their body. Or the police walk up to people on the street and scan them with hand-held wands for metal. Then they have to empty their pockets. If they have a pocket knife they're arrested.

as far as I know, metal detectors are only installed in certain places, like airports, sea ports (as if someone can hijack a cruiseship with a leatherman) and sports grounds. the police would only be carrying metal detector wands if there was a spesific "crackdown" on knife carry in that area, which ususaly means there is a spesific event going on, such as a football match, whith its attendant drunken fans of the loosing team looking for a fight with the winning team's fans, especialy certain combinations of clubs who have a "history". demonstrations where either it is considered likely to decend into violence due to the demonstrators, or due to other groups with a dislike for the demonstrators, e.g. a gay pride march may attract racist groups. finaly there may be searches introduced in an area where there has been a stabbing, a noticeable increase in the use of knives in crime, or an outbreak of gang-related violence.
 
A spokesman for Devon and Cornwall Police said Mr Drew was found with a bread knife and a machete behind the sun visor of his van.
Officers also discovered two axes in driver's door pockets and a scythe in the passenger footwell.
He said: 'An officer might assume a professional gardener would keep his tools in a bag in the back of the van.
'He explained that the knives were for business purposes but the officers felt this was for the courts to decide.'

I can understand why the police would be suspicious of finding that amount of bladed impliments in the front of a van. one or two might be reasonable, as he may have been using them just before he left his last job, and simply put them in the front rather than opening up the back, only to get them out at annother job 5 mins later.

however when he was able to produce evidence that he was working at the time, why where the charges not dropped? hes proven reasonable grounds.
CPS cockup. again.
 
last i heard, police were not as yet able to dictate where and how one should store the tools of your trade, tho they are getting darn close to doing so. as long as he was not using them in an illegal manner or threatening someone at the time the police stopped him, it should be none of their business. if they were hidden in the door pockets or behind the vison, they were not readily available to be used to assault or scare anyone. however in this PC world we now live in, people get 'educated' into believing what they did was perfectly valid 'to protect' the 'people'. his loss of income, his legal costs and his abuse by the system were apparently not even compensated.

another gardener whose shed had been broken into countless times was told by the police he should not put a lock on it because it hindered the criminals from stealing his tools - it was thus his fault for forcing them to damage the shed to open it, and another was told he could not put barbed wire around his vegetable plot because the thieves that kept stealing his veggies and uprooting his flowers might get injured and he could be sued.

we recently had a police raid on the houses of parliament, a tory mp, the party not in power, had his official office in parliament, westminster, the thing with big ben at the top, searched without a warrant, govt. papers taken and/or photographed, his computer confiscated for forensic analysis, and he was arrested and taken into custody for questioning. his crime? listening to a govt. employee 'whistle blower' who had leaked an upcoming disaster of a govt. plan and then asking about it in parliament. the govt. had the police 'inquire' into the leak for them. apparently that is now illegal, tho the prime minister has stated that he did exactly the same thing when his party was not in power, and also went further by actively encouraging and 'developing' sources he could use to embarass his opponents. guess he doesn't like it being done to him back tho. to put it in perspective for y'all back home, this incident is a bit like if o'bama's senate office had been searched by the washington police under orders of bush's staff before the election looking for information on his informants, think watergate but done offically.

the policeman who lead the raid has been commenting that the incident was blown all out of proportion and was actually a plot by the tories against the police to prevent him investigating the leaks by mobilising the press against him and endangering his family, who he felt had been threatened. he was particularly incensed that someone actually videotaped his bullying of the mp's office staff. he's been forced to apologise for that bit of paranoia, but remains in charge of the leak investigation. who is this police official? just an assistant commissioner in charge of the 'most senior counter terror' group in the country.

anyhow, now you know why our police in general are not allowed to have guns.
 
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What's been said about the state of Britain in this thread is true. :(

Add in what's not been cited, and it's actually even worse. :mad:
 
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