• The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
    Price is $300 $250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
    Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.

  • Today marks the 24th anniversary of 9/11. I pray that this nation does not forget the loss of lives from this horrible event. Yesterday conservative commentator Charlie Kirk was murdered, and I worry about what is to come. Please love one another and your family in these trying times - Spark

Ultra high carbon simple mono steel

BluntCut MetalWorks

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,462
For experimental ht (basically ended with a super quench :highly_amused: ). I bought a few bars of Hitachi white#2 from Dictum. First 2 knives were affectively destroyed during ht (edge view in pic below). Second 2 knives, I had to dealt with 1/16" to 1/8" depth delamination through out the blade perimeter but they are usable knives as pic.

IMG_4172.JPG

Lamination / San-mai added complexity to my experimental ht, I think it's now somewhat under control. For up coming experiments, I am looking for mono (no lamination) ultra high carbon non-alloy steel, where carbon mass between 1.25% and 1.6%.

1. Where can I buy Hitachi White#1? And
2. Suggestion for viable/feasible alternative steels?

Appreciated.
 
I hope to be of SOME help to you Bluntcut. Try this link http://www.yamamura-mfg.co.jp/g-material.html. They have White #1 mono I believe (no san mai), it has a bit of Silicon, and 1.2-1.3 carbon I think they will sell and ship to the USA. You might need a translator tool like google translate. But take a look and see if they might can help you out. I have never ordered from them or inquired of their products, but was directed their way in another thread about Hitachi steels. If you find something there you like, and have some success, I'd love to hear about it!
 
Last edited:
What are you hoping to gain with such high carbon levels? I am curious.
 
I thought the same thing, Willie. With a steel that has such high carbon levels, and no alloy to bond with...it's just excess carbon that "can" cause problems.
 
Thanks for the link, Stuart. I had no luck with purchase steels directly from Japan. I need to make friend with Murray and or Jon (at JKI), then just a maybe I can get some white#1 steel. Or expensively buy a large kitchen knife in white#1 to make smaller knives from it (silly route).

Willie & Stuart - carbon readily to bond (weak or strong/covalent) with other elements. Fun to find out cutlery usable upper range of carbon mass %. Once lumpy Fe3C appears, that when every attributes (toughness, strength, keenness/grain-size,wear, etc..) going down hill. Take White#2 for example, ~0.55%C is not used by the matrix. How ht distribute & manage this excess Carbon will determine your blade performance.

I hasn't conduct extensive test for the 2 knives above yet. However 1 knife passed preliminary test: dry shave, whittle dry knotty oak for 10+ minutes and 40+ linear meters of cardboard. Passed mean the blade still cleanly slice newsprint (at 45 degree angle - half with grain and half cross grain) after all 3 tests.
 
Last edited:
Zdp-189 has an impressive 3.0%C
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=ZDP-189&ni=410&hrn=1&gm=0

I ponder (warning - delusional yakking :abnormal:) a feasibility of a simple carbon blades with 2-3%C by mass. Definitely it's could easily fall in the lower range of cast iron cementite segregation. Zdp alloy is mostly with Cr - PM process enabled uniform element & carbide distribution. As-to-date research & empirical data pointed that (well ok, maybe defacto projection) too much excess in carbon in non-PM steel will lead to coarse Fe3C clump structure - early manifest of cast iron cementite. otoh, IF one can form/precipitate/miracle super fine Fe3C with fairly uniform distribution, will produce a super performing blade. This 'IF' hinges on super fine grain, otherwise many elements & carbides gravitate toward grain boundary, eventually matrix boundary plate fracture during martensite formation and perhaps tempering carbide precipitation.
 
I quote for the "otherwise": all that proeutectoid carbon won't behave like you hope, on the contrary it will do exactly what you fear, unless alloy elements come into play like they do with modern steels, designed for this very purpose: Strongest matrix, finely dispersed tiny carbides.

cheers

Stefano
 
In high alloy steels, the excess carbon gets bound up in carbides with the alloying. That is where the 3% in ZDP and other steels gets used.

In a pure carbon steel, all you need is .84%. Any excess over that beyond an additional .25% is just going to get you into trouble. There is a reason that cast iron isn't good for knives.
The Hitachi #1 white steel with 1.1-1.2% carbon is about as high as you can safely go, and only work because they are very pure. I haven't done side-by-side comparison with #1 white, but #2 white works fine for me.
 
Isn't the increased carbon in white#1 simply there to account for the carbon loss in forging? I am noticing the white#2 knife I am working on is quite wear resistant while finishing. I can't see why more carbon would be needed. Apparently a lot of carbides :thumbup:.
 
Isn't the increased carbon in white#1 simply there to account for the carbon loss in forging? I am noticing the white#2 knife I am working on is quite wear resistant while finishing. I can't see why more carbon would be needed. Apparently a lot of carbides :thumbup:.
and probably also to take into account diffusion when forge welding...i think it is a very difficult steel to work with unless one have near perfect control of temperature.
I would fear all that carbon would go out of hands quickly.
 
There aren't any doubt in my part that steel makers & metallurgists figured out long ago - carbon% in clean simple carbon peak its practical usefulness around 1%. 1.1%-1.3% would be a big drop of safe usefulness. So 1.5% might as well be close to zero practical usefulness due to certainty of cast iron formation. Well, I would like to try 1.5-16%C, what not to like with almost zero chance of success and almost 100% chance of wasted effort & money ;)

Edge stability & wear resistance together is a good indicator whether a hardened blade is usable or not. Coarse grain = bad perf. Coarse carbide = lousy push cut but maybe ok in draw cut (depend on material). ht-grail, with 1.5%C + submicron grain + sub 100nm carbide, there would be sufficient carbide (volume) coverage to protect much softer matrix from wear while retain good toughness. 'How?', which doesn't imply trials & errors, can't expect different results from doing pretty much same thing as others had done.

Reckon my desire to waste-some... where can I get some of these wasted steels?
 
Willie,
Your assumption is correct. - I will elaborate.

Lets talk about why people think Japanese steel is superb and why the Hitachi steels have the reputation that they are the best of the best.

In the early days of sword and knife making, various metals emerged to make the sharp rocks, sticks, and bones obsolete. Copper, bronze, and iron were all high tech weaponry in their day.
Then someone smelting iron noticed that the bloom had chunks that were harder. They did not understand what a carbon-iron diagram was, but they knew hard when they saw it. Over centuries, different ways to smelt out the iron and add the carbon were developed. Because they had no idea what any changes caused, the process became a nearly magical/religiousritual that was both protected as well as adhered to and taught by rote. The Two of the most famous today were the Japanese with their tartara blooms called tamahagane, and the Indians with their wootz. Both were different because they came about through different development processes, and both were similar in they were kept secret and promoted with legends and stories of magical properties.

The Japanese steel was sorted from the bloom by a very experienced (old) smith who would determine how "hard" the pieces were. A blend of this was mixed and welded into a bar of solid steel. It wads very irregular as to carbon content, varying from cast iron to soft iron. The bar was folded and folded to evenly distribute the carbon, ending in the tamahagane of samurai sword legend. These billets were often very high carbon content ..... some being well over 2%. The quality of the billet was a factor of the smith who made it. Those with name recognition and imperial status were accepted as the best sources. Yasuki steel district near Edo (Tokyo) was the accepted source of the best steel, mainly due to its location/access to the main markets and the Emperor. Steel from here became known as Yasuki Hagane - literally, "Blade Steel from the Bay Area". Fast forward to today when the grain boundaries and carbide distribution are subjects of relatively inexperienced smiths. The foundries with their PhD metallurgists can make a bar of steel any way they want...every time. The steel giant, Hitachi, used the Yasuki label to their advantage to make its steel stand out among all others as the top grade. The use of Hitachi #1 white is a standard for top grade Japanese blades. The buyers want to see that Yasuki/Hitachi name to know it is a good knife. Today, the same knife made from Aldo's W2, or any high carbon steel from Sandvik, Uddeholm, Niagara, etc. will be just as good. For well over 30 years, it is all marketing. Compare this to Rolex, who markets its name as meaning superior quality ( which it is definitely not).

Back to the tamahagane steel.

The billet was given/sold to a smith who would forge the basic shape, and given/sold to a smith who would harden it, and given/sold to a togishi who would make it a sharpsword, and given/sold to a koshirae maker to put it all together as a usable sword. each person had to rely on the reputation of the steel and the steps before them to market the sword. The smiths doing the forging and shaping would run the blade through hundreds of cycles in forging. The excess carbon was burned out in these cycles, leaving a final product with often half the carbon content of the starting billet. The final product was just perfect form the yaki-ire process. All this added up to why the Yasuki swords ended up harder than the lesser grade "plain" steel did. BTW, the final carbon content of these Super swords' was between .60 and .90%.

What the Hitachi steels have going for them is consistent quality. #1vwhite today will be the same as #1 white from a batch in 2004. There is no such thing as getting the wrong steel from the supplier and him saying, "Sorry "bout that, I sent 5160 instead of W2." Each bar is wrapped in a paper and marked clearly. The papers used were color coded so an illiterate smith cold keep then straight. You bought from one source and that was the same source your grandfather used.
The purity of the steel is the second advantage. It is made virgin and the alloying isn't the ghost of every piece of manhole cover and car fender melted in the batch. The types are available in grades of pureness, and variations of alloying so a smith can pick the exact steel needed for a project.

Is Hitachi #1 white a super steel - No
Is it a super accurate steel in content that can be relied on - Yes.
Does Hitachi market this fact - Yes!
Why doesn't Niagara or Aldo make up a virgin batch of Hitachi #1 white equivalent - Because the tiny knifemaker crown isn't worth the time or effort.
 
Today, the same knife made from Aldo's W2, or any high carbon steel from Sandvik, Uddeholm, Niagara, etc. will be just as good. For well over 30 years, it is all marketing.

Why this isn't understood and accepted more - ESPECIALLY here, by knifemakers - is totally beyond me.

Excellent explanation, Stacy. Thank you.
 
Bluntcut,
I got sidetracked and didn't address your main issue. - You are not using a mono-steel! A three layer billet of two dissimilar steels is not mono in anyone language :)
The HT of laminated steel is much gentler than a mono-steel.....unless you are trying to tear them apart. Did you follow the HT guide for the laminated steel that Dictum provided?
 
Thanks for that info, Stacy. Very informative. By FAR......my favorite part of knife making is the metallurgy end of it all. I used to think Hitachi steels were the "bee's knees" when I first started into this venture, not knowing what I know now! I remember thinking, "If this stuff is THAT hard to get, it MUST be the best of the best." EEEEEEHHHHHH.....Wrong Answer! Now that I've messed with Blue and White, it's out of my system, and I could care less about obtaining the Hitachi steels. As long as W2 and 52100 are around....I'm happy! I wish more Cru Forge V was available (in 1/8" bars). Looking at a steel's composition is always fun and informative for me.

Concerning the de-lamination that happened when Bluntcut did his heat treatment....it's interesting to hear that. I just hardened the same thing (san mai billet from Workshop heaven in blue steel), and the the blade developed a huge bend in it. Very surprised to see that bend, because I was bragging to my wife how dead straight my pre-heat treat grinds were....and the lamination line was even on both sides. Go figure. It's straight as an arrow now, but when I read bluntcut's heat treat problem, I wondered if there might be a problem. I doubt it, tho....given the reputation these steels have. I must have ground one side more than the other...but I can't figure out how. The bow was huge. I used Murray Carter's numbers. 1490F for 15 minutes, but I did quench in Parks 50, which I understand is probably too fast for blue steel.
 
Stacy, thank you for your excellent details explanation & history of Japanese no longer mystical but merely straight forward metallurgy.

Sorry for my poor first post. I didn't want to forge the mono-steel bar (consequence of drop carbon %), so I bought laminated white#2 bars instead. If I had use Dictum ht instruction, there wouldn't be any issue to discuss. My first ht attempt turned out poorly (1 exploded, other savaged a petty into a straight razor size). 2nd ht (yes, included a super quench) turned out fine in spite of minor delamination.

In preliminary testing, I found white#2 out perform my W2,52100,1095 blade. Just for my tinkering, white#1 *as rolled* with ~1.25%C is what I seek to experiment with. I tempered these 2 white#2 around 375F - seem to be excellent tough slicer. They easily beat my ~62rc s110v knife in wood carving & cardboard cutting, and very close behind in cutting rope made from old denim jean. Conjecture white#2 carbide coverage is too sparse to prevent cotton (with fine dust/sand grit) fiber to burnish the matrix edge. Perhaps a bit more carbon mass% will have sufficient carbide coverage (distance between carbide to carbide) to shield the soft matrix from abrasive fiberous materials.

Bluntcut,
I got sidetracked and didn't address your main issue. - You are not using a mono-steel! A three layer billet of two dissimilar steels is not mono in anyone language :)
The HT of laminated steel is much gentler than a mono-steel.....unless you are trying to tear them apart. Did you follow the HT guide for the laminated steel that Dictum provided?
 
Sorry, about showing my delaminated blade pic. Nothing wrong with these laminated steels - white or blue - when follow as instructed ht recipe. I super quenched these blades - affectively cool a 1/8" thick blade from aust temp to room temperature in 3-4 seconds. My 2nd try was successful. I have confident that 3rd attempt will be no edge delamination at all. Dealing with lamination is an unnecessary battle on my quest, hence I seek next up in carbon % in mono steel. btw - I probably I will make a couple knives in laminated blue#2 steel as point of comparison (sadly I only bought 1 bar of this).

Concerning the de-lamination that happened when Bluntcut did his heat treatment....it's interesting to hear that. I just hardened the same thing (san mai billet from Workshop heaven in blue steel), and the the blade developed a huge bend in it. Very surprised to see that bend, because I was bragging to my wife how dead straight my pre-heat treat grinds were....and the lamination line was even on both sides. Go figure. It's straight as an arrow now, but when I read bluntcut's heat treat problem, I wondered if there might be a problem. I doubt it, tho....given the reputation these steels have. I must have ground one side more than the other...but I can't figure out how. The bow was huge. I used Murray Carter's numbers. 1490F for 15 minutes, but I did quench in Parks 50, which I understand is probably too fast for blue steel.
 
Stacy, I appreciate the explanation.

I picked Kevin Cashen's (not trying to name drop, I don't like taking credit for other people's problems solving/work) brain last weekend, and tried to figure out why my 15N20 blades perform as well as they do, nearing my O1 blades, which I do a lot fewer of. The conclusion was that the 15N20 is probably quite clean, the 2% nickel probably helps with toughness at the edge allowing much higher rockwell numbers than a 1075 steel should allow. I am optimizing my heat treat and geometry for this steel. This is all good, but the second part of the equation is that I haven't optimized my O1. While a useful heat treat, I haven't experimented with fine tuning the temps, or the final hardness/geometry with O1. I haven't had a failure in O1 heat treat since the first few blades, but I have pushed the 15N20 to failure in parameters in several ways, resulting in poor performance, failure to harden, etc. The failures taught me a few things. I had failures with 52100, and I have been optimizing my heat treat with it too. Why am I mentioning this, as it isn't related to the carbon discussion above? Its to remind us that rather than looking for improvements in chemistry, that we can optimize our heat treat and get a blade that will surpass our needs. I have been convinced that experimenting with steel in your own shop and finding the optimum with the equipment you have is the solution we should be pursuing. If we need wear resistance, cruforgev or s35v have it in spades. W2 and 52100 are the two steels that balance wear with fine grain the best in my limited experience. No one has complained about the edge holding of the 15N20 kitchen knives yet, and they aren't even made from a steel that is optimized for this use. :thumbup:

Bluntcut, I think your experimenting is fun, but have you tried the hitachi steel in 10f increments from 1410 to 1470 to see where the steel gets the best performance? I did my first one at 1440f, and it seems very wear resistant. I plan to do a series of coupons and try multiple temps to see what optimum is in my shop.
 
In search of a great general-use performing knife (steel+ht). I've made knives out of steel(multiple of each type): s90v, 20cv, s110v, k110 & d2, numerous 52100, 1095, white#2, Aldo W2 & Don_Hanson's W2, 15N20, CruV, cpm-m4, elmax, 3v, aeb-l, 14c28n, 1084, s35vn, k390 and maybe a few more. As of today, white#2 is on top of the performance list. Testing is highly subjective and prone to bias, so I try to be fair & reasonable whenever possible. Also recognized that my baseline knives (spyderco, yoshikane, benchmade and a few others) are small sample and lack of high-perf custom knives.

Last weekend, I also made 2 15N20 test knives. They perform very well - sharp + hard + super tough but wear resistance is right around 0.75%C level. Yes, similar to knives made from steels with carbon mass % around 0.8 and 0.7. Also made 2 knives out of W2 from Don Hanson, these out performed 1095 knives and on-par with 52100. keep in mind, I super quenched all my low Cr knives.

Will white#1 or other ultra high simple carbon bring even higher performance? IDK but would be fun to try. So far, no luck in getting some of these steel...
 
I will give you some advice that you can choose to take or leave. Eventually, you will discover it for yourself.

Pick one or two steels and learn them inside out. Using a dozen steels over two years and saying "this is better than that" is fooling yourself. Without dozens to hundreds of blades made with the same steel you don't know much about what is good or not in that steel. Jumping around from steel to steel actually confuses the issue a lot, too. Pick a single steel and learn all you can about it.
Make a single knife style out of that steel a dozen times. Make each knife start to finish and test it before starting to making another.
Secondly....STOP USING SUPERQUENCH. It is a concoction made up for low carbon steels to try and fool you into thinking they can be good knives. A good carbon steel with .60% or higher carbon will be damaged, not improved in using one of these silly quenchant mixes. Trying to make a steel get harder in quench beyond its designed parameters won't improve it any more than turning the thermostat to 50 degrees will make the room cool down faster. With the proper quenchant and the proper methods, a steel will reach its maximum hardness. You can't make it go past that point. For the type of steels you seem to like I would highly recommend you getting five gallons of Parks #50.

If you want good knives it takes four major things:
1) Good steel
2) Good geometry and blade shape to match #1
3) Good HT parameters and temperature control for #1
4) The proper quenchant for #1

Until those are nailed, it won't matter what you do to try and cheat the curve. The only way to nail it is to practice doing it....many times.
 
Back
Top