Ultra High End Knife Collecting...$10K and up?

[Apex_Speed]

I have been collecting high-end custom knives for many years and my collection has a good representation of makers, engravers, materials, and styles. My maximum ceiling on a knife purchase has been just under $10K and only a few knives have moved me enough to part with the that kind of money.

I now find myself looking at the next level and drooling. There are many remarkable engraved Osborne, Warenski, Kious, pieces that blow my mind in the $16-20,000 range. I appreciate the work and processes required to create them. Can I afford them, yes. Would I miss the money that I put into them, no. I collect high-end watches and cars that make these look affordable. So what is stopping me?

Most of the money that I have tied up in collectibles, (financial catastrophes aside) could be easily turned back into cash without any significant loss and in short periods. Especially the knives, cars, and watches. They are cash equivalents and bring more joy than money sitting in retirement accounts.

My concern is that when it's time to sell a knife in that price range, that there aren't many places to sell. So you are forced to go through a dealer who takes 20-25% which is a significant chunk. Also, that there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement in this range, even when pieces are bargain priced. I think you just have such a narrow market with those few who are willing to buy them and that they really have to speak to that one right buyer who not only likes Osborn but likes that style of engraving and that blade/body combination. A lot of things to get to line up.

I see a fair amount of movement in what I consider the ridiculous end of the range with knives from Michael Walker and other select few makers bringing up to 6-figures at times and doing it very quickly but these guys generally don't interest me.

Any words of wisdom from other collectors that are into pieces at this level?

 

[john april]

i have some expensive toys, nihonto swords, high fidelity equipment, antiques, knives, vintage musical instruments. i had an antique bottle collection that cost over a mil, i lost 250k when i sold it. interest in collecting had dropped off, many of the older collectors had passed and their collections were on the market, so the supply started to outweigh the demand and of course you know what happens.prices went down. luckily i cashed it in right when i started to notice it happening. i think about that lesson everytime i go to buy something expensive. i remember baseball cards did the same thing in the 1970-80's. losing the 250 didnt kill me but it sure was annoying, and i felt foolish. one day you are bidding on five figure museum quality specimens, the next day you feel like an idiot. it can happen in any subject of collecting. i guess its a matter of your own comfort level, lets say no one collects knives in 10 years and you lose all your money. will you be ok financially? how bad will it hurt i can imagine dying, and my nephew is selling two thousand dollar knives to his friends for $50 and they are throwing them at trees and stuff

 

[not2sharp]

...

Most of the money that I have tied up in collectibles, (financial catastrophes aside) could be easily turned back into cash without any significant loss and in short periods. ….
My concern is that when it's time to sell a knife in that price range, that there aren't many places to sell. So you are forced to go through a dealer who takes 20-25% which is a significant chunk. Also, that there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement in this range, even when pieces are bargain priced. ….

These two thoughts seem contradictory. Which is why we often refrain that collectibles, including knives, are best thought of as a form of entertainment rather than an investment.

As knives get higher in prices they stray from their utilitarian roots to become objects of art. The market is necessarily narrower, because there are fewer collectors willing to buy at the price and because the Art has to be attractive to the potential buyer. Like anything else it all comes down to marketing. It would be best to seek out a dealer who works with this range of clientele; they may charge an arm and a leg; but they can also realize sales at levels that are profitable for you. Another alternative is to reach out to the original knife makers and allow them a commission to sell your knife for you.

If they can get a spot for your knife on their table you will have plenty of exposure. Especially if they have access to this kind of show:
http://artknifeinvitational.com/

n2s

 

[marchone]

My concern is that when it's time to sell a knife in that price range, that there aren't many places to sell. So you are forced to go through a dealer who takes 20-25% which is a significant chunk. Also, that there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement in this range, even when pieces are bargain priced. I think you just have such a narrow market with those few who are willing to buy them and that they really have to speak to that one right buyer who not only likes Osborn but likes that style of engraving and that blade/body combination. A lot of things to get to line up.

I think that when you go above $2K in knives most of your conditions are met. Every hobby has its price brackets. I have over $40K in bespoke long arms I'll likely never get back. So I'll just continue to enjoy them till I can't anymore. Whatever my heirs can get from a dealer will be found money to them.

 

[on_the_edge]

I have found that when the cost for something starts going into the stratosphere so to speak, not only does the pool of eligible prospective buyers shrink significantly, but those buyers tend to be extraordinarily specific about what they want and are generally unwilling to accept anything less. It's the "I can afford exactly what I want" mentality which, by the way, often may not make sense to anyone but them. The end result is an even smaller, perhaps nonexistent, pool of potential buyers.

If you could buy something for 10 million dollars that there was only one of in the world and was told that you could potentially sell it for 15 million in a year, but that there are only 3 potential buyers in the world, you just have to find them and convince them to buy it or you're "stuck" with it, would you make that "investment"? Will you ever truly get a level of enjoyment out of owning something commensurate with the level of your expenditure? No right or wrong here, but something to consider. IMHO, "joy" as you put it comes from within, not without. But, that is not a topic for this thread.

 

[Dawkind]

Don’t buy collectibles in an attempt to make money on.....I buy what attracts me and what I like, not what I think will turn a profit.

Knife Collecting is a very small World and getting smaller everyday...selling thousand dollar knives can take awhile let alone ones that are 5-figures.

 

[Aidenag]

I honestly would not expect the, lets call em mid-range collectable knives to hold their full value in the future. And by mid range, i mean the $5k-25k range. Reasoning being that this price range is basically fueled almost entirely by a dying generation of middle to upper class boomers who just "had" to have it. Majority of stuff the boomers are/were into has little interest to their children/grandchildren(or to prior generations either). Johns Antique bottle collection a good example of something that for a time had high interest, but people my age or younger would look at and say "how much? ha!". Not to knock your hobby/passion, i personally find it neat too, but as a whole, interest just isn't there anymore.

My own experience with this was a grandparents insanely huge antique fine china collection that went to me with the grandparents plan of it giving us a nice little bit of money. single tea cups in the 90's and early 2000's valued at $500+ a pop, entire 8 person dining sets in the 10k range.. When we finally got em a few years back, value was a fraction of that. what was worth a good $100-150k, sold for just under $25k after a year of struggling to find buyers. And it's like this with almost all of the stuff the age 60+ crowd collected for the most part. Some exceptions of course, cars, watches, etc etc. But overall 90+% of it has plummeted in value. My generation is finding that almost all of the stuff our parents and grandparents collected and grew up being told how valuable it was and will keep getting, is basically worth nothing now.

And my generation is repeating this same trend currently just in different forms. Still in packaging NES Mario selling for $120k last week at auction. Will be worth next to nothing in 40 years when nobody with the nostalgia for 80's video games is around.

All that said, i do think the sub $5k market is going to keep growing stronger, and the insanely detailed, 6 figure, museum level type knives will hold their value as well. It's just this mid range stuff that i dont see doing well.

 

[954Ink]

I got to reiterate points others have made. I collect knives (under a thousand each max) but have a collection of expensive guns and guitars. Every few years I debate selling stuff just and am quickly reminded how narrow the potential customer base is. My buddy has Les Paul's he paid between a quarter and half million dollars each for before the last recession that now might fetch 100 on a good day. I believe several factors attribute to this; vaccum of wealth, that price range allows someone to get exactly what they want, and customer base is tiny.
Even my rifles that are under five grand dont get any good responses when posted for sale just a barrage of trade others and low balls. My last rifle I consigned ( and regretted selling) sat on consignment for almost a year.
I often tell my soon to be wife and kids that when I die they better not sell my stuff to an estate dealer or quickly without research. If they sell stuff I spent time searching for and good money on, blindly I will haunt them.

 

[Apex_Speed]

i can imagine dying, and my nephew is selling two thousand dollar knives to his friends for $50 and they are throwing them at trees and stuff

LOL, this is why I have instructions for my art, knives, guitars, audio, cars, etc, to all go to the appropriate dealers for liquidation if I drop dead.

 

[954Ink]

Alex good idea. I should make a list of honest dealers and consignment companies. Then have it attached to my will with a list.

 

[Apex_Speed]

I honestly would not expect the, lets call em mid-range collectable knives to hold their full value in the future. And by mid range, i mean the $5k-25k range. Reasoning being that this price range is basically fueled almost entirely by a dying generation of middle to upper class boomers who just "had" to have it. Majority of stuff the boomers are/were into has little interest to their children/grandchildren(or to prior generations either). Johns Antique bottle collection a good example of something that for a time had high interest, but people my age or younger would look at and say "how much? ha!". Not to knock your hobby/passion, i personally find it neat too, but as a whole, interest just isn't there anymore.

My own experience with this was a grandparents insanely huge antique fine china collection that went to me with the grandparents plan of it giving us a nice little bit of money. single tea cups in the 90's and early 2000's valued at $500+ a pop, entire 8 person dining sets in the 10k range.. When we finally got em a few years back, value was a fraction of that. what was worth a good $100-150k, sold for just under $25k after a year of struggling to find buyers. And it's like this with almost all of the stuff the age 60+ crowd collected for the most part. Some exceptions of course, cars, watches, etc etc. But overall 90+% of it has plummeted in value. My generation is finding that almost all of the stuff our parents and grandparents collected and grew up being told how valuable it was and will keep getting, is basically worth nothing now.

And my generation is repeating this same trend currently just in different forms. Still in packaging NES Mario selling for $120k last week at auction. Will be worth next to nothing in 40 years when nobody with the nostalgia for 80's video games is around.

All that said, i do think the sub $5k market is going to keep growing stronger, and the insanely detailed, 6 figure, museum level type knives will hold their value as well. It's just this mid range stuff that i dont see doing well.

Very well said and an interesting perspective. Maybe I need a 6-figure knives?! Not really though as they take things too far. Better to collect swards at that level. I think the most expensive knife I've actually been drawn to is $30-40K.

 

[Apex_Speed]

Alex good idea. I should make a list of honest dealers and consignment companies. Then have it attached to my will with a list.

It is pretty critical with esoteric collections. How many people would know the painting above your desk is $40,000, a gun $50K, or a knife $20K? I'm guessing that most aren't sharing the price of their toys with their significant others.

 

[WValtakis]

I'm guessing that most aren't sharing the price of their toys with their significant others.

Really? My wife is well aware of what my toys are worth, and she's coming here to sell them

 

[Apex_Speed]

Thanks for the interesting perspectives. I guess I'm most interested in what the health of the market is in that price range. It sounds like the market is what a specific dealer is able to make it and shrinking every day. The guy that waits the longest might get the best deal but there's no fun in that.

 

[Apex_Speed]

Really? My wife is well aware of what my toys are worth, and she's coming here to sell them

 

[Aidenag]

Very well said and an interesting perspective. Maybe I need a 6-figure knives?! Not really though as they take things too far. Better to collect swards at that level. I think the most expensive knife I've actually been drawn to is $30-40K.

Haha yeah, dont take that as a endorsement that you should buy $100k+ knives instead. I wouldnt be surprised if a good chunk of them go down in value as well. But at same time i see many of those doing well due to the Museum factor lets call it. That's actually how one of the appraisers at Antique roadshow described it to me when i was taking a sword in when they were in town and i think he was well put. If it's something a Museum will want in 100, 200 years etc, then its going to do well. If it's something your great great grandchildren will hang on their wall as a family heirloom, its not.

And of course there are exceptions to my mid range theory as well. Bob kramer would be an example i think, he pretty much lives in the $5-25k range(well higher lately but overall in that range) and the 2nd hand market for his stuff is just nuts and likely will stay that way long after he is gone. And there are more makers that would fit that as well, but for the most part the ones that will be known in 100+ years are going above and beyond that price range. OR going below it and making stuff that while still pricey, is within reach of most people fairly easily or as a splurge item. Its not too hard to justify buying one a $2,500 knife. skip a vacation, eat out less for a few months, an investment went well, etc. you get past that $5k range though and it all changes. 99% of the populace can't afford it, and you're now relying on very picky collectors or Museum type situations to keep its value going. and at that point, $5-25k is just 'meh' when compared to a true show stopper that only a handful of people on earth could even make.

 

[Apex_Speed]

Haha yeah, dont take that as a endorsement that you should buy $100k+ knives instead. I wouldnt be surprised if a good chunk of them go down in value as well. But at same time i see many of those doing well due to the Museum factor lets call it. That's actually how one of the appraisers at Antique roadshow described it to me when i was taking a sword in when they were in town and i think he was well put. If it's something a Museum will want in 100, 200 years etc, then its going to do well. If it's something your great great grandchildren will hang on their wall as a family heirloom, its not.

And of course there are exceptions to my mid range theory as well. Bob kramer would be an example i think, he pretty much lives in the $5-25k range(well higher lately but overall in that range) and the 2nd hand market for his stuff is just nuts and likely will stay that way long after he is gone. And there are more makers that would fit that as well, but for the most part the ones that will be known in 100+ years are going above and beyond that price range. OR going below it and making stuff that while still pricey, is within reach of most people fairly easily or as a splurge item. Its not too hard to justify buying one a $2,500 knife. skip a vacation, eat out less for a few months, an investment went well, etc. you get past that $5k range though and it all changes. 99% of the populace can't afford it, and you're now relying on very picky collectors or Museum type situations to keep its value going. and at that point, $5-25k is just 'meh' when compared to a true show stopper that only a handful of people on earth could even make.

The museum comment has truth to it. But when it comes to swords, many of the simpler ones are going to be in museums while the elaborate ones with little history are going to be on a living room wall.

For me, I'm simply drawn to heavily engraved pieces from Osborne, Warenski, Kious and those tend to cap out around $20K. I'm not that much more "wowed" be what's in the next bracket up but it's impressive. The price multiplies quickly in that bracket with $80K not getting you that much more.

 

[Ron Sabbagh]

There is merit to collectibles......the key is knowing which ones to collect. (ain't that the truth)

For example, a Mickey Mantle baseball card has NEVER depreciated in value. So it can be like gold in the bank, with better return. Same can be said for vintage Rolex watches and Patek Phillipe watches. These items never depreciate. In fact, the Royal Family is one of Patek Phillipe's most loyal clients. They buy pieces to add to the crown jewels and have one of the greatest collection of PP watches in the world.

When it comes to knives, you need to be very careful. There are perhaps less than a handful of makers who may fit this criteria. For the higher priced models, Ron Lake comes to mind. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly his knives sell, even at $20K. They seem to always be in demand. For more mid priced knives I'd look at Tony Bose. Tony's work has never depreciated. Prices have doubled over the last 10 years and continue to climb.

There are many fine makers who's work you may admire and might want to collect but if you want to look it at objectively - through an accountants eye - the 2 makers I'd take a hard look at right now are Ron Lake and Tony Bose. I'm sure there are others - and that is the fun of collecting - trying to find those makers. But it is a risk - even makers like Loveless, Moran, Schmidt, etc still have some trouble selling.

 

[Apex_Speed]

There is merit to collectibles......the key is knowing which ones to collect. (ain't that the truth)

For example, a Mickey Mantle baseball card has NEVER depreciated in value. So it can be like gold in the bank, with better return. Same can be said for vintage Rolex watches and Patek Phillipe watches. These items never depreciate. In fact, the Royal Family is one of Patek Phillipe's most loyal clients. They buy pieces to add to the crown jewels and have one of the greatest collection of PP watches in the world.

When it comes to knives, you need to be very careful. There are perhaps less than a handful of makers who may fit this criteria. For the higher priced models, Ron Lake comes to mind. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly his knives sell, even at $20K. They seem to always be in demand. For more mid priced knives I'd look at Tony Bose. Tony's work has never depreciated. Prices have doubled over the last 10 years and continue to climb.

There are many fine makers who's work you may admire and might want to collect but if you want to look it at objectively - through an accountants eye - the 2 makers I'd take a hard look at right now are Ron Lake and Tony Bose. I'm sure there are others - and that is the fun of collecting - trying to find those makers. But it is a risk - even makers like Loveless, Moran, Schmidt, etc still have some trouble selling.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I of course know those makers but don't watch them closely. It looks like I have some research to do!