Unacceptable flaws

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
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In the thread titled "Do we tend to overlook imperfections on custom knives?", this topic was introduced by Alain M-D and I thought it deserved its own thread.

What do you consider to be flaws that would be bad enough to cause you to not buy a knife? I have to get ready for work, but I will be back later to post my thoughts on this topic.
 
It all depends on the price of the custom -- but the custom knife flaw that I hate the most is a gap between the guard and ricasso. Everything should be tight-fitting and secure. I don't care if they use JB weld, or solder, I just don't want gaps.

I also don't like seeing fantastic blades (grinds, finish) then followed by an "okay" handle with gaps and an "unfinished" look. I've seen that on a few customs, and I just don't understand it.
 
I'm turning into a picky Bastid, and find myself not wanting knives for reasons that others may not care about. If the blade is clearly not ground evenly, or the swedge is noticeably off, or the guard has gaps, or there is a 2" grinding dip in the blade, I am turned off on the knife. This leaves very few knives to buy if you are being REALLY picky. Basically, I am looking for perfect, or as near to perfect knives as I can find. They are out there; you just have to be patient. I fully realize that no knife is perfect, but some guys come a lot closer than others.
 
Custom folders:

Gritty; or noticable friction in pivot action

Ball detent that "hangs up" as blade is retracted

Gaps between scales and bolsters

Finishes applied unevenly
 
Thanks, Keith. Here is my top 10 from the other thread.

Ten things that are no-no's in a knife;

gaps - joints should be tight

blade play (folders) and uncentered blades

sloppy locks (folders)

uneven and blurred grinds

poorly ground edges, not even

not sharp!

inconsistent finish

poor detents (folders)

poor ergo's

sharp edges where they shouldn't be sharp
 
Danbo and I have been to more than one show together, and we've talked at length about this very topic...isn't that right, Dan??:p

I'm almost as picky as Dan, but not quite. If I see a design that really jumps out at me, I'll be really tempted to buy it. The even plunge at the base of the blade is something I never really considered, until ol' Dan turned me onto it, picking apart nearly every one of my knives! Rotten oinker, that one is!

The things that will absolutely turn me off are:

Poor locking mechanisms
Chunky bevels (I like them whisper thin)
Blurred grind lines
Off center blades, while closed
*Once in a while, the uneven plunge, but like I stated earlier, if it's a really cool design, I'll probably end up buying it.

Great thread, by the way!
 
Very cool thread! Most of the stuff I look at is already mentioned.My biggest by far is sharp edges other than the blade edge.Alot of the other stuff you kind of have to take with a grain of salt, the makers ability and skill and their price.I have bought knives that were a little rough for a decent price and just done a little fine tuning myself.I think this is what led me to making knives.Getting ready for Blade with several knives in the works, really hard to get everything just right.I keep thinking that knife is done, then playing around with it front of the TV I find something I missed.Great thread, will help me as a maker too!
Thanks
Matt
 
A maker's poor communication or a bad attitude top my list of flaws.

No matter how well made it is, if either of these things have pissed you off, then that knife needs a new home. (Not an easy task for the knifemaker to achieve, because it's somewhat subjective. But, better to err on the safe side!)

Coop
 
Well, here is the thing... :)

Recently i have been finding the occasional cheap, mass produced knife that was surprisingly well made. Of course not of the finest materials and the finish isnt custom level, but i have seen a few cheapies, like Kershaws, and CRKT's that cost anywhere from $20-$75 that exhibited nearly perfect fit and function. By this i mean, centered blade, NO play, lock well fitted, a real peeve of mine, a smooth action and a strong detent to keep the blade closed. So, naturally, my feeling is, is CRKT can do it for $50, CERTAINLY a high-end custom maker can as well, and yet, many of them simply dont. I dont know why?

I guess what seperates the mediocre makers from the great ones is a willingness to work on a knife until it is essentially perfect, now of course, nothing manmade can be truly perfect, however, a custom maker should EASILY be able to make sure that the knife that leaves his shop has no play, centered blade, smooth action, strong detent and most importantly a well fitted lock with correct fit and geometry. Sounds easy, but apparently it isnt, because i keep seeing high-end customs, many from very popular makers with flaws that are so obvious, it took all of half a second to notice them. How on earth does a custom maker NOT notice significant blade play? How can they not notice a liner lock that engages too far to the right? How can they not see the blade is way off center in the handle? I just dont get it. What seperates the greats from the merely "goods" may be simply that one thinks the thought: "It's close enough" and one doenst.

So, i stick with the guys who do care, Mayo, Carson, Obenauf, JW. Smith, Aaron Frederick, Charles Dake, and of course the king of consistantly well made folders, Chris Reeve. Have you EVER seen blade play on a Sebenza? I havent, and i have examined a BUNCH.

Sure, makers are only human and eventually, somehow one is going to slip through, but i see it too often, and on too high a percentage of the maker's knives. Somehow i just cant believe that Ron Lake frequently lets poorly made knives leave his shop. The good news is, perfect knives CAN be found, I find them from guys like Mayo, Carson, Obenauf, JWS, Chris Reeve and others... I suppose even they slip once in a while, but it is RARE.
 
Danbo mentioned this: "...or there is a 2" grinding dip in the blade".

Danbo, could you (or anyone else) explain that term to me? I'm trying to improve my eye.
 
seeing as this is the custom forum, I'll limit my responses to custom knives...

As I mentioned in the other thread, I think the "acceptable flaws" depend on the type of knife...I can't imagine uusing the same criteria to "rate" a full-blown art knife that is meant to be put on display as I would a "tactical" that is meant to be used/carried...

In any case, I buy tacticals so to me an "unacceptable flaw" is one that is functional rather than aesthetic e.g.

1) not sharp
2) too blade/handle heavy
3) too small to fit my hand (well, this is a flaw in design)
4) blade play
5) poor action (e.g. too hard to open/close with one hand)
6) gaps or pins that you can feel


I can live with grinds that are not 100% even.

RL
 
Flaws that will turn me off a knife are different for knives that I am going to use and those I am never going to use. The price of the knife will also have a lot to do with what I will accept and what I won't.

For a user knife, it must be solid and have a comfortable handle. I have no problem with a less than perfect polish because it isn't going to last anyway. I always like a blade to be evenly ground, but in a user of moderate to low price I will forgive slightly uneven grinds. One thing I will never accept is an uncomfortable handle. If I am going to work with a knife all day the handle has to feel like it is part of my hand. I also agree with no sharp edges where there should be no sharp edges.

On a collector knife I want as close to perfect as I can get for the money I am spending. No uneven grinds or plunges. No gaps or poor soldering/brazing. The tapers must be straight.
 
Some interesting comments here. I agree with many of them. Gaps, rough edges and poor fit-up are never acceptable. On any knife, the blade grind is top priority. Symmetry of the grind lines, on-center grind and and even plunge area are key. Uniformity of finish is also key.

I would not regard issues of blade/handle balance as flaws, however. A knife can be made perfectly, but simply might not balance where you as the customer might like it to. That's not necessarily an issue of the maker's quality. The same goes for handle size, feel, etc. Some people might love the feel of a knife, while others might not. Again, not a reflection of the maker's quality level.

On folders, I agree about the detent action-it should be crisp with no play. Blade should be centered when closed, although on a big framelock with a strong spring, it might be off just a tad and still be right. No blade play when open is also key, but, as to the "flip-ability" of thye blade, that's somewhat of a personal preference, as is the tightness of lock. some folks like blades that swing freely, with a lock that engages properly but requires little effort to disengage. Personally, I like a little friction as the blade opens, with a tight lock that requires a bit of effort to disengage. Of course, this still means that there is no gritty feeling as the blade pivots, and the lock releases smoothly. My point is that some of these things can come down to personal preference. If you like a folder a maker has, but have strong feelings about ease of opening or lock-up, ask him if he has one that has an action that is more to your liking. In a batch of 10 knives, some will be tighter, some a bit looser, depending upon how the spring was bent and how the lock was fitted.
Also, remember that there is a certain amount of adjustment possible, as well.

Oh-if it isn't sharp, it'll have someone else's name on the blade! <G>
 
I agree RJ, a handle that works for one persons hand will not necessarily work for another's and this is not a flaw. However, there are flaws in handle design that make them unuseable for long work periods. The worst is sharp edges on the handle of a chopper. This is going to cause hot spots and blisters. I think a great many knives are designed to look good, but functionality is not always taken into account.

Edited because I left out an important word
 
Keith: Yes, I agree with that. I would just differentiate poor ergonomics as a design flaw, not a workmanship flaw. A truly overall good knife will have a design that facilitates use in whatever application it is designed for.
 
Man, I better not bring any of my knives to Atlanta :eek: :eek: :eek:

Kidding (I hope).

This is an interesting thread and I agree with much of the repsonse.

The small details are usually what seperate someone that makes a good knife from someone that works to make a great knife. Some of these details are small, and 10 minutes can make the difference.

To me much of this is relative to a makers experience as well. If I look at a knife a guy made after 4 months of doing it and the grinds are off, I wouldn't be near as critical as if I see it on a full-time maker of 5 years work. Make sense?

Something that comes up a lot with forged knives is warped blades. If a maker is careful, they'll be able to get things straight, but sometimes you'll look down a knife and it looks like a boomerang.

One thing I hate it terrible edge geometry. Now I'm sure there are folks that would not like mine, but I make them thin to cut. I have seen several knives that resembled sharpened splitting wedges. If a maker only grinds their edge down to 0.050" and then puts a secondary bevel on it, it will cut and feel sharp at first, but it will SOON be duller than a hoe. I think this is much different than the ergonomics issue that RJ pointed out (which I agree with totally).

Grapevine, a 2" dip is often seen right at 2" from the ricasso. Keep in mind most makers grind their blades on a 2" wide belt. If you stall too long trying to get the plunge cuts even, you will often get a divet from the opposite edge of the grinding platen.

If you're careful you can avoid it in the first place. If not, you can grind the blade FLAT with a disc sander, or sand it out by hand...but it really takes a lot of elbow grease because you have to get the entire blade down to that depth for it to be FLAT. This is "too much work" for some, and they won't fix it. Most times, you won't see this divet unless you hold the blade so that you can get the light to reflect off the blade...but it's there.

Keep em coming, I like this thread :)
Nick
 
Definitely a goo dthread for beginning knifemakers like myself, to get ideas of where specifically flaws are looked for. I mean I know my normal list of things that I've always looked for, both buying and making knives, but some of these hadn't really ever come to my attention till y'all pointed them out.

Enough things listed that I would be discouraged, except for fact I only make fixed blades, and probably never will make folders, so a lot of these don't apply to me. ;)
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
In the thread titled "Do we tend to overlook imperfections on custom knives?", this topic was introduced by Alain M-D and I thought it deserved its own thread.
Click to expand...

Thanks Keith ! Good idea to start a new tread !

Thank you to all for your invaluable comments... It Is very formative!
I asked this question because I did not have often the occasion to show
my knives to experts like you... It is very interesting to know what you
experts and look in a knife.

I want to start to sell some of my next knives but I always wonder if it is
rather good anought (probably a normal question for a beginner...).With
your comments I will make a "check list" and observe them when I will
make my next knives!

Alain M-D
 
For the most part, a custom knife does not have to be perfect for me to want to own it. I can accept some variances and "character". Some things that I have encountered in my exposure to custom knives.

Here goes, in order of unacceptability:

Custom Folders
1. Edge too thick and/or blade not sharp. No excuses for this.
2. Handle not comfortable / ergonomics off
3. Lock up not solid or lock failure with minimal pressure on the spine (no spine whack test)
4. Blade off-center
5. Sloppy or uneven grinds

Custom fixed blades
1. Edge too thick for the intended purpose and/or blade not sharp. No excuses for this.
2. Handle not comfortable / ergonomics off
3. Balance is poor, or incorrect for the knife style.
4. Sloppy or uneven grinds

Good thread.
 
I'm keeping a close watch on this thread... So much to learn, so little time.

The whole fit and finish thing is what gets me. As a buyer, I'm really not particularly picky. As a maker, I hope its the other way around. I like things straight, even and clean.

I saw recently a rather pricey sword (brand-new) which was clearly warped in HT. The overall curvature would have been just 0.5inch from the midline at the tip. Thats small, but totally noticable. The human eye can apparently judge 1/4inch variations at 100yards. For a maker with considerable experience to miss something like that is hard to believe, and playing dumb when a customer picks out the problem in 1/2 a second is just that - dumb.

On the other hand, I know plenty of makers whose work is the epitomy of fit and finish. Locally, guys like Peter DelRaso, Myron Husiak, Shawn McIntyre, and many, many others, are those I go check out for a reality-check when I'm getting swell-headed thinking my knives have "OK" fit and finish now.

In the end, if someone is impressed enough with the "package" thats what counts. Everyone's got different priorities. Jason.
 
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