Uncle Henry 153 hard to sharpen.

JM2

JM2

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I have a carbon steel uncle henry 153 that seems really hard to sharpen. Ive not had any trouble getting other 1095 blades sharp such as ontario's sp1 and an izula, and an old timer pocketknife . This just seems to be extra hard.

Is there any way to take some of the temper out of it to make it a touch softer, but not ruin it?

Im not going to switch from an arkansas stone.
 
I'm curious as to how old this Uncle Henry knife is? Reason I ask, any of the Schrade USA Uncle Henry knives made in the last ~25 years (maybe much longer) have been in stainless steel; mostly 440A, though more recent versions have been in 420HC. If the tang on the blade shows the 'SCHRADE +' mark, it's definitely stainless steel (that's the significance of the '+' on the tang). 440A will definitely sharpen up more slowly on an Arkansas stone, as compared to 1095.

(I am aware the 153UH was, at some time, produced in 1095 carbon steel; determining how old your knife is might illuminate whether you've got one of those or not).


David
 
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If it is that noticeably harder to sharpen than other knives in 1095, it may very well be 440A. And that can be determined with moisture and time!
 
I have no idea how old it is. I bought it off ebay specifically looking for one with a 1095 blade. I spark tested it against a known piece of 1095, an ontario machete. It had faint age spots when I got it and now has some discoloration from when i've cut meat with it. It is not marked schrade+ The sheath is cracked from age, and it has an arkansas whetstone with it instead of the carborundum or diamond stones i've also seen. The stone was unused, and the knife appeared little used when I got it.It is marked on the side of the blade schrade super sharp, but its faded so bad you cant see it unless you hold it just right. It doesnt have a serial number either.
 
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JM2 said:
I have no idea how old it is. I bought it off ebay specifically looking for one with a 1095 blade. I spark tested it against a known piece of 1095, an ontario machete. It had faint age spots when I got it and now has some discoloration from when i've cut meat with it. It is not marked schrade+ The sheath is cracked from age, and it has an arkansas whetstone with it instead of the carborundum or diamond stones i've also seen. The stone was unused, and the knife appeared little used when I got it.It is marked on the side of the blade schrade super sharp, but its faded so bad you cant see it unless you hold it just right. It doesnt have a serial number either.
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That discoloration from cutting meat might be the best clue. Could be 1095, if so. 440A is a very stain-resistant steel, even by 'stainless' standards, because it has a lot of chromium content at 16-18% (most 'stainless' blades will be around 12-14% chromium). I wouldn't expect to see staining from meat-cutting or other food uses, if it's 440A.

The slow pace of sharpening might just be due to a very thick edge grind on the blade. Even 1095 can grind pretty slow, or very slow, if a lot of steel has to be removed to thin it out; and more so, if using a marginal natural stone that isn't cutting very fast anyway. I'd suggest picking up a SiC stone at Home Depot or ACE Hardware. The Norton 'Economy' stone is the one found at HD, and it's inexpensive to boot. ACE has functionally identical stones under their own branding, in the same SiC abrasive, and a larger selection of sizes, up to 8" x 2". Also not expensive at all, with the biggest one at about ~$10-$12 or so. That'll work a lot faster than the Arkansas stone on 1095 or 440A, and it's just as easy to use as any other oil stone.


David
 
nice info guys..
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Good hard 1095 is not as easy to sharpen as often toted to be. You won't need to switch stones but you will need to spend longer on them. Spending longer on coarse and medium stones will help in creating a sharp edge.
 
That may very well be the key Jason B.

The stones im using are smiths arkansas stones. I've been using them for 15 years. A medium and a fine arkansas. The medium cuts quick normally and puts a good edge on most tools and knives, and the fine stone refines an already sharp edge. Then I strop a few times on the leather cases i made for them.

Part of the enjoyment I get from using my knives is sharpening them on a traditional arkansas stone. I do not want to use other methods or stones.
 
The mention by Jason, of 'good hard 1095' reminded me that Schrade (USA) had published hardness specs for their 1095 blades in the 57-62 HRC range. If up there in that 60+ zone, that might be playing into the slow grinding on your blade. They treated their 440A blades in the 58-60 HRC range.


David
 
57-62. WOW. What a range. 6 points variation.

According to some research online, they stopped putting serial numbers on the blades in the early to mid 80s, so I think we can say that it is later than that since it has no serial. I also believe they stopped using carbon 1095 around 1994, and went to 440A.

You might be able to check something out. The carbon steel blades (this is just online research, another thread from this forum) have a thickness of .165", and the 440A has a thickness of .135".

Using that info, you should be able to instantly determine if it is 1095 or 440A. I think there may even be 440C versions....not sure on that one.
 
I have had mine since 1974. I had trouble sharpening it at first until I learned to really get aggressive with it. By "aggressive" I mean that I have to really put a lot of pressure on the blade--push down hard--to raise a burr. After you have raised the burr you can lighten up on your finer stones. The blade will take and hold a keen edge. Mine has been through a few deer, but I quit using it for hunting several years ago when I found smaller, lighter knives could do the job just as well. I still like to take to the camp with me, it is an old friend.
 
I had kind of the same reaction. With Schrade's LONG history, and wide range of blades & knives made over that time, I'm sort of assuming there might've been variation by knife/blade type, and perhaps by time periods. The quoted figures came from some Schrade catalog/promotional material for some of their line, maybe back in the '90s or so. It was from a chart listing all the steels that Schrade (apparently) ever used, including their elemental makeup and HRC hardness ranges for each. In other words, the range quoted wasn't (I don't think) a reference to allowable tolerances for each knife produced, but reflective of their full history of steels used in their knives.

As for discerning carbon vs. stainless steels, my 'easy test' for 1095 or similar carbon steels, is to moisten a Q-tip with some white vinegar, and just 'dab' a spot onto the blade. Wait about 5-10 minutes, then wipe it away; if it's 1095 or similar, the steel will oxidize quickly, leaving a grey or darker stain on the blade. Doing the same test on a stainless blade won't discolor the steel at all.

samuraistuart said:
57-62. WOW. What a range. 6 points variation.

According to some research online, they stopped putting serial numbers on the blades in the early to mid 80s, so I think we can say that it is later than that since it has no serial. I also believe they stopped using carbon 1095 around 1994, and went to 440A.

You might be able to check something out. The carbon steel blades (this is just online research, another thread from this forum) have a thickness of .165", and the 440A has a thickness of .135".

Using that info, you should be able to instantly determine if it is 1095 or 440A. I think there may even be 440C versions....not sure on that one.
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There is no doubt that the knife in question is carbon steel. I cut a roast up with it, and from 5 minutes from end of cutting to washing, it blued the blade where it had touched the blood.
 
No doubt about it, then. 1095 for sure. 1973-1994 production run.

I LOVE meat protein patinas!!!! Blue and purple....just awesome looking! I wash and dry IMMEDIATELY when done cutting. Knife does not sit on the counter for one second. Gorgeous looking patinas! Love carbon steel!
 
I thought it was one of the most beautiful things i'd ever seen. All of the knives i've used for cooking have been stainless steel, OR, have already been seasoned brown with a lot of age, so they didnt show the blue and purple.
 
So much great information from one question. I have been making knives for almost two years and only use 1095HC steel. I use 3/16 stock and put a convex grind on my blades. As you can imagine this leaves a pretty beefy edge. For me as a novice knife sharpener it's easy because I use a belt grinder. But I'm able to put a wicked edge on it. I do my own heat treat and leave it relatively soft at 57hrc. Of coarse before I started making knives i collected uncle henry knives. The schrade-waldens I have to say are my favorites. Glad to have a forum like this where I can keep learning!
 
I took a notion, after some research, and tempered the blade in the oven. First i did 550, assuming its correct, for an hour. This made the blade softer, and I was able to sharpen it easier. I retempered again at 625 or so, and that made it just right. It is at the same approximate hardness as the blades of my old timer pocket knife. Easy to sharpen. I havent cut a whole bunch with it yet, so we'll see for sure. But it appears to hold an edge good thus far.

I left the color on the blade instead of polishing it off.
 
This treatment worked well, softening the knife enough to be able to sharpen it easily with arkansas stones, but still left it hard enough to retain an edge for a decent amount of time. I lost the knife in question in a house fire may 9th. But i have since purchased another one, and it too was too hard for my liking. I tempered it as i did the first one, and have the same results.

My experience with schrade knives includes several old timer pocket knives, and a sharpfinger. All carbon steel, and all easily sharpened. So perhaps the 2 153's ive had came from the same batch, and were tempered harder than the others.
 
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