under 2" fixed concealed in CA

J

jp101

Joined
Jun 29, 2008
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112
curious as toi whether this would be legal or not :) i know that CA has a lot of under 2" laws, so i wondered if fixed blades applied.
 
The 2" law only applies to "switchblades" (which in CA includes balisongs).
 
So if you are carrying say... a Swisscard, technically your guilty?
 
i was worrying more about, say, an emerson La Griffe... but thats an interesting point solid.
 
Then again, a disposable plastic fast food knife is also an "undetectable weapon":jerkit:
 
jp101 said:
i was worrying more about, say, an emerson La Griffe... but thats an interesting point solid.
Click to expand...

fixed blades in ca are a tricky subject.

the penal code prohibits any fixed blade knife "readily available for use as a stabbing weapon".

now, is sheathed in a pocket compliant with this definition? under some circumstances i would say it is.

my lagriffe has a leather sheath, and sheathed in a pocket it is not really readily available. strapped to my belt it is. in the original kydex hung around my neck, it probably is.

it is subject to the interpretation of the individual law enforcement officer who discovers it.

ive gone back and forth on what constitutes legal fixed blade carry in my own mind. you would be best not to carry a fixed blade of any length and therefore not risk any jail time.

but the section does not say specifically that fixed blade knives are prohibited. (carried concealed)
 
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MORIMOTOM said:
fixed blades in ca are a tricky subject.

the penal code prohibits any fixed blade knife "readily available for use as a stabbing weapon".

now, is sheathed in a pocket compliant with this definition? under some circumstances i would say it is.

my lagriffe has a leather sheath, and sheathed in a pocket it is not really readily available. strapped to my belt it is. in the original kydex hung around my neck, it probably is.

it is subject to the interpretation of the individual law enforcement officer who discovers it.

ive gone back and forth on what constitutes legal fixed blade carry in my own mind. you would be best not to carry a fixed blade of any length and therefore not risk any jail time.

but the section does not say specifically that fixed blade knives are prohibited.
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Thats a bunch of nonsense.
You've confused yourself by taking something out of context and building logic around it.
Go read
http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html
and read
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

Its illegal to carry concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.
which is defined as anything readily available for stabbing (with exceptions for allowed folders..).
Don't hide your pointy thing :D

Fixed blade must be carried openly regardless of length
(open carry, not concealed).
 
medusaoblongata said:
At least, you would be best not to carry a fixed blade of any length concealed, and therefore not risk any jail time.
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yes, open carry is permitted.

just10minreader said:
Thats a bunch of nonsense.
You've confused yourself by taking something out of context and building logic around it.
Go read
http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html
and read
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

Its illegal to carry concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.
which is defined as anything readily available for stabbing (with exceptions for allowed folders..).
Don't hide your pointy thing :D
Click to expand...


how is anything i posted nonsense?

are you saying any fixed blade carried concealed meets the definition of a dirk/dagger? i disagree.

ive read the sections pertaining to knives many times. the first link has the author's opinions regarding the sections, and there are various interpretations of what constitutes illegal carry.

Fixed blade must be carried openly regardless of length
(open carry, not concealed).
Click to expand...

indicate where in 12020 pc this is written.
 
So if it was in a purse or wallet?
 
Been doing a little digging. It would make sense to me that when there is a question of the law that a reasonable citizen should have some method of gaining legal/sanctioned clarification. This is what CA looks to have in place:

http://ag.ca.gov/opinions/index.php

As the chief law officer of the state, the California Attorney General provides legal opinions upon request to designated state and local public officials and government agencies on issues arising in the course of their duties. The formal legal opinions of the Attorney General have been accorded "great respect" and "great weight" by the courts.
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#
Who may request an Attorney General's opinion?

The California Constitution and state law designate the state and local public officers who may request a legal opinion from the Attorney General on any question of law relating to their respective offices. However, this does not authorize a designated officer to request an opinion on a question posed by someone else. A request will be declined when it is apparent that the request is made on behalf of someone not authorized by Government Code section 12519. Those who may request an Attorney General's opinion are:

Constitutional Officers....

Legislators....

State Agencies...

State Boards or Commissions...

District Attorneys, County Counsels, and Sheriffs...

City Prosecutors...

Judges...
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What happened to government for the people by the people???? They have all the people on this list except those who might have to worry about breaking a law because they weren't sure about what the law meant, AND they even go so far as to prevent you from doing something like asking your legislator from asking for you. Who does the citizen get to answer their questions. Their website recommends you go find a lawyer. That is crap. I shouldn't have to pay a lawyer to explain something that is funded by my taxes, and if he explains it wrong the courts don't give a shit.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is backwards, where those that enforce the rules won't tell you what they are before they try to drag you into court? It shouldn't take someone's liberty on the line to sort out a question like what "is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death." Is it a pencil? Anyone else see Dark Knight??
 
Thomas_J said:
Been doing a little digging. It would make sense to me that when there is a question of the law that a reasonable citizen should have some method of gaining legal/sanctioned clarification. This is what CA looks to have in place:

http://ag.ca.gov/opinions/index.php





What happened to government for the people by the people???? They have all the people on this list except those who might have to worry about breaking a law because they weren't sure about what the law meant, AND they even go so far as to prevent you from doing something like asking your legislator from asking for you. Who does the citizen get to answer their questions. Their website recommends you go find a lawyer. That is crap. I shouldn't have to pay a lawyer to explain something that is funded by my taxes, and if he explains it wrong the courts don't give a shit.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is backwards, where those that enforce the rules won't tell you what they are before they try to drag you into court? It shouldn't take someone's liberty on the line to sort out a question like what "is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death." Is it a pencil? Anyone else see Dark Knight??
Click to expand...

i agree...CA is real pissy in general when it comes to knife laws...i figure ill probably never be in a situation where I need to be searched...i would hope...i've heard of people taking sharpies and sticking them through peoples' cheeks...anything's dangerous...knives are tools, but they just don't seem to be able to wrap their brains around that
 
solidsoldier said:
So if it was in a purse or wallet?
Click to expand...

there is where interpretation becomes important.

if a knife is in a backpack, it is certainly concealed.

"readily available", in simple english, means quickly accessable. if its in a backpack, i would find it difficult to argue it is quickly accessable.

in a wallet, the same. one would have to remove the wallet, then remove the swiss card, then the knife. that's not quick or readily, imo.

in a purse it would be a simpler argument, just given the nature of a woman's (or man's) purse. purses over one shoulder by design, allow easy access to the contents.

rw clark, who used to post frequently, has defended successfully many defendants arrested for knife carry violations. he has also posted it is his opinion that any fixed blade is prohibited by the penal code.
 
Thomas_J said:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is backwards, where those that enforce the rules won't tell you what they are before they try to drag you into court? It shouldn't take someone's liberty on the line to sort out a question like what "is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death." Is it a pencil? Anyone else see Dark Knight??
Click to expand...

i can think of some reasons why the ag would not want to field inquiries by those not mentioned.

however, i agree on your points.

also, keep in mind even the ag only issues an opinion. this does not constitute case law or is not binding in and of itself. it would assist in a court proceding, but guarantees nothing.


ill take a shot at requesting the ag's opinion on 12020.
 
Thank you, really...:thumbup:
 
I don't have references that I can quote off the top of my head ok, but I recall two things: The "dirk and dagar" thing has been ruled long ago to apply only to specific knive types, and knives in general are no longer all considered dirks, dagars, or stabbing weapons just because they have points. This would eliminate that part of the law as being any problem.

The concealed fixed blade statutes are in another part of the law, not in any of those quoted above. I do recall reading that if one is aprehended carrying a fixed blade concealed, it is considered a "nuisance", and the knife is subject to confiscation by a LEO, but it is not an arrestable violation per se.....

I love my La Grief's, but I find that I rarely carry them becasue the laws are so vague that any LEO's I might come across is likely to overreact or react inapropriately. It isn't worth jeprodizing things like a security clearance, getting a CCW approved, or being denied a job, because you have some silly knife arrest (whether bogus or not) on your record....so the concealed fixed blade thing is somewhere I don't even go.

Funny, my EDC "city" knives are two Emerson folding Combat Karambits (under 3"), which I can legally carry concealed virtually anywhere in the state (except K-12 school grounds), yet I can't carry a little bitty La Grief just because the blade if fixed......
 
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reconranger said:
I don't have references that I can quote off the top of my head ok, but I recall two things: The "dirk and dagar" thing has been ruled long ago to apply only to specific knive types, and knives in general are no longer all considered dirks, dagars, or stabbing weapons just because they have points. This would eliminate that part of the law as being any problem.

The concealed fixed blade statutes are in another part of the law, not in any of those quoted above. I do recall reading that if one is aprehended carrying a fixed blade concealed, it is considered a "nuisance", and the knife is subject to confiscation by a LEO, but it is not an arrestable violation per se.....
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the section (12020pc) refers to a concealed dirk or dagger.

no where that i have read in the penal code are concealed fixed blades specifically prohibited.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
no where that i have read in the penal code are concealed fixed blades specifically prohibited.
Click to expand...

It's somewhere in the penal code that deals with weapons in general, and not in the "knife" laws that everybody always quotes. I have seen it many time, but neglected to bookmark it so I can't find it right now, but when I do I will post it.

In any case, we are so lucky here in Calif to be able to carry a 4" folder concealed with no problems, so we should all be counting our blessings instead of complaining about fixed blade trivia.....
 
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MORIMOTOM said:
the section (12020pc) refers to a concealed dirk or dagger.

no where that i have read in the penal code are concealed fixed blades specifically prohibited.
Click to expand...


Contained with section 12020 of the penal code you will find this:
(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death.

IIRC, this specific language came about after someone was stabbed to death with a cold chisel. Anything that can readily be used for stabbing (a closed folding knife isn't, by definition) will be considered a "dirk or dagger" under the law.
 
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