Understanding the ABS Cutting Competition

primos

primos

Joined
Jan 27, 2000
Messages
615
Part One

This is my feeble attempt to help clarify some of the apparent confusion in the thread entitled "Rope Cutting Record", which took a turn and drifted off into the ABS Cutting Competition -- something completely different. For those interested, the link to that thread is: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=275055

I have opted to put my views on the subject in a speparate thread in order to allow the other thread to return to it's original discussion, which was the rope cutting record.


#####

Man, the ABS sure does seem to get tied to the whipping post from time to time. It makes me sad. Guys, if it weren't for the ABS and the good, caring people associated with it, many of us would not be where we are today. In fact, I think in large part that the industry itself would not be where it is today if not for this fine organization. Please note the phrase "in large part". A fellow has to be very careful with his words any more. I am not saying that the ABS is the "only" reason for the boom in the industry, but that it has played a crucial role. Now let's "cut" to the competition ...

While I in no way represent the ABS in any official capacity, I was in the first ABS cutting competition ever held, so I do know enough about it to discuss how and why the whole thing got started. It started at the Piney Woods Hammer-in at Old Washington, Arkansas some years ago.

The purpose was simple. For one thing it provided some fun for the crowd, to actually watch the makers push their blades and see what they could do. Another very important purpose which falls in perfect alignment with the philosophies of the ABS is that it served as a teaching tool for the participants.

If I may, I'll take a moment and step back even farther in time to help this make even more sense. Jimmy Crowell and Jerry Fisk had been doing similar tests with their blades probably since some 18 years ago or better. I really can't say for sure exactly when they started doing this since I wasn't there. These tests helped them realize how to improve the performance of their blades. It was an invaluable teaching tool for them, for testing various heat treating methods, edge geometry, edge holding ability, blade shape, blade strength and toughness, balance, handle design, etc.

Now jump ahead many years. These guys could have kept all the knowledge they'd gained to themselves, but of course one of the philosophies of the ABS is to share the knowledge. The idea came up about having a little competition at the Hammer-in. It would be entertaining to the crowd, as well as fun and educational for the participants. If a maker's blade did not fair too well at any particular event, or if it failed completely during the competition, the Masters could help the participant understand what had gone wrong and how to resolve the issue, to make a better blade.

I honestly can't remember whether or not the first competition had a plaque/trophy/medal for the winner, but the idea was at some time presented somewhere along the line, to help sweeten the pot for the participants so-to-speak.

As we progressed through the years the competition became a major part of the Hammer-in's, both for the crowd and the makers. People started to really take notice. So it became obvious that a set of guidelines should be put into place to insure a level playing field in the competitions. The events have been tweaked along the way through the years in an attempt to further the evening of the playing field.

Here is a prime example. This is a photo sent to me by a friend. It is to the best of my knowledge, from the first ABS cutting competition ever held. At the very least it is from one of the first two or three. The two competitors shown here are Bill Moran in the foreground (obviously), and yours truly along side him.

terry_bill.jpg


As you can see, at that time the 2x4 chop was done with the participants holding the their own 2x4's. As time passed, we became aware that in some circumstances a larger, stronger person "could" have a slight edge over a smaller competitor in this event by leaning into the board. These days the 2x4's are instead, secured horizontally and supported by 2x6's, which forces the participant to completely chop through the board. Now the event is on a much more even ebb regardless of the participant's size and strength. The point is that the ABS does in fact try to keep things fair and square for all participants. As we go along, more changes can probably be expected with respect to fairness, safety, and so on.
 
Part Two

In response to the comment:
The way it works now, it is simply a southern ABS championship simply due to distance to compete.
Click to expand...

This comment is both inaccurate and completely unfair. As shown in part one, the competitions did in fact begin in the South, but Hell, it's got to start somewhere doesn't it? Remember, when this thing was started, it was just for fun, and to be used as a learning tool. Nobody knew that it blow up into such an important thing.

The ABS has already in fact been expanding the competition to other parts of the country. Did anyone hear about the competition at the Scagel Hammer-in Michigan? I would hardly consider Michigan to be part of the deep South. Can I get an amen on that?

Also, I just in the last six or seven days logged 2,750 miles with Jerry Fisk, traveling back and forth from Frederick, Maryland for the Moran Hammer-in. The reason? Well, one of them was to help set up the ABS cutting competition there. We hauled the equipment and we bought the things used in the various events. Is Frederick, Maryland part of the deep South? Let's see, my history is a little bit rusty here. Which part of the Confederacy did Frederick, Maryland participate in during the War of Northern Aggression? ;) Oh what meanies we ABS boys are for keeping the competition to ourselves here in the deep South. Yes, those last two comments were made in jest so let's keep things in perspective. It was just a playful prod at some my good "Yankee" buddies. (Group hug).

Okay, to get back on track here, no, the competitions are obviously not restricted to the Southern states, and I want everyone to be aware of that. As I stated earlier, I am not speaking in any official capacity for the ABS, but I do believe that even as I type this, the ABS is discussing and possibly even working on ways to expand these competitions to the various regions of the country. Again, this is NOT an official statement, but to the best of my knowledge is fairly accurate. However, we must understand that these things can't happen overnight. They occur after much planning and discussion, and after much expense and hard work, and many miles traveled by folks who also have to work to make a living.

Let us keep in mind that the idea of someone not being able to qualify because of great distances just doesn't hold water. I myself traveled about 44 hours round trip and gave up five or six days of shop time for this deal. And no, I'm not bringing this up to put myself on a pedestal. I'm making a point that if something is important enough, people will make time and endure hardships for it. Others traveled much greater distances than I did and gave up more than I did for this thing. Many of us will be eating beans and crackers for the rest of the month, but the opportunity to share the information and support the ABS (who has done so much for us), made it well worth the hardship. Hell, Shawn McIntyre and his lovely wife shared a table with Fisk and I at the show on Saturday, and they are from Melbourne Australia!
 
Part Three

Regarding the idea of having the exact same events at each and every ABS competition is just not necessary. If the decision is made to do that, it's fine, but it is not necessary. Each of the events is designed to check certain aspects of the blade. Some will be finesse cuts, some will be brutal impacts, some are tests for a keen edge, others for abrasion resistance, impact resistance, edge geometry, etc., etc.

Let me clarify. Let's assume that at one competition the test for a keen edge with good edge geometry is the clean slicing of a cigarette paper. At another it may something else like toilet paper, or fileting a business card. Is it fair? Well, yes. Have you ever considered why the events are changed at every competition? The answer, "An even playing field for every participant".

Assume that every single competition encompassed the exact same materials for the various events. Anyone who had competed in at least one competition would have an edge over anyone who had never competed. The reason? They already know exactly what they will be called upon to do, and can practice on those very materials. With the competition varying in materials the way it does now, nobody can gain an edge on everyone else because they don't know what they're blade will be called upon to do.

The exception to this is of course the 2x4 chop and the free-hanging rope cut. Why? Because this is an ABS event and those two things are a tradition with the ABS.

So you see, much thought goes into the events to ensure that the testing of various aspects of a good blade are part of the deal, and that the competition is as fair as possible for all the participants. Is it absolutely perfect? I don't know, maybe not. But what in this world of ours that is dreamed up and/or created by man is absolutely perfect?
 
Terry, thanks for taking the time to make this very good arguement for the validity of how the cutting competitions are done. I am not sure that I agree that changing up the events helps to make it a more level playing field for all those involved. There will always be a disadvantage for competitors that are new to a competition, but if they know exactly what they have to practice for then competitors that are new to cutting competitions should be able to easily prepare for what they will face. In the Olympics they do not change the events in which one must compete in the decathalon so that new competitors will not be faced with a disadvantage. Why not? The reason is that competitors in the event will always know what it is they must practice for.

Maybe I am being to picky here, but I don't think that a world championship should have the competitors not knowing what it is they should be practicing to do.

Please don't anyone think that I am in any way criticizing the ABS. I am a huge supporter of this organization and the fine work they do. What they have done here is to produce a great blueprint for what I think are very exciting competitions that will add to fan turnout at hammer-ins and shows. This can only be good for the knife industry as a whole. My suggestion is being made only as a way of throwing out an idea to be debated. I do not consider it right or wrong, just my thought on how these events could be made better.
 
Just to add to what I stated above, I realize that it will take time to get these competitons widespread enough that people will not have to travel, and sometimes to travel great distances to compete. As long as an effort in being made to make these events more accessable to everyone that wants to be involved, then I think that is all that can be expected. From what you have pointed out here Terry, it is my opinion that a great effort is being made towards these ends.
 
Beans and crackers for the rest of the month? Dang, better watch it around those open flames in the shop.;)

Seriously, great post Terry. Thanks for all that you and the rest of the bashers do for the knife world. I hope to one day attend one of these hammer-ins and witness all this first hand.
 
Terry

Thanks for the post

By the way, I believe at that hammer-in, was when Bill at 70+ did in fact show us all how it's done.


:)

BY the way, Jerry, Mike & crew go thru each event them selves first, to make sure it is a valid test for both the knife and the maker.
 
Pete,
Yes sir, that was the one. I remember it well. I just wasn't going to humiliate myself by telling that part. :D

I heard Mr. Moran hit that board six times and then heard the board plop on the ground. I didn't do quite as good.

Let's see, while I was chopping on my board I think the time keepers were sitting under a tree playing Canasta. Fisk was drumming his fingers on the microphone and making circles in the dirt with the toe of his boot. The audience all went and took a potty break.

I did finally get through that damned board, but I believe by the time I did, Mr. and Mrs. Moran were half way back to Maryland.
 
I see these competitions as a good thing for the entire knife industry. If promotors of shows and various knife clubs chose to condone cutting competitions in shows around the world we could actually have a true world championship contest.

I am not trying to bash the ABS, it has promoted the forged blade much further than any individual or small group could. The ABS has brought many new hands to the world of custom knives. The more makers and folks interested in the custom knife, the greater our industry will become.

For the ABS to try to sanction cutting competition in all the places that there is potential for events is asking too much of a few who are doing it now. The compeitions could be franchised or deligated to other members or show promoters or whoever wanted to sponsor the events.

To those of us who live a long way from Arkansas the trip would be expensive and time is hard to come by. Sure some will travel thousands of miles, some are lucky to be able to afford scrap steel and materials to make their own forge.

There is also a great advantage to opening the events up to the stock removal makers also, competition can and has proven it can stimulate friendships and further knowledge for all involved.

The rub came when the event was called the world championship. Not yet, but it can be if we wish it to be.
 
Originally posted by Ed Fowler
The rub came when the event was called the world championship. Not yet, but it can be if we wish it to be. [/B]
Click to expand...

Thank you, Ed.

When I was reading about this cutting competition (in BLADE?) I tought:" Hey world championships! From where all over the world the makers might come?"

I understand that the most participants are americans. You have with the ABS a great organization not seen in other parts of the world.

Just let spread the word and there will be real world championships in the future!

Thanks Terry, for a good read! I do know now much more about the ABS and these competitions!

Stay save
 
I don't plan to make a career out of this thread, but I believe we have had participants in these things from England, France, and South Africa if I recall correctly. You guys do realize that the ABS is now world wide, right?

Time for another little history lesson I guess.

On December 4, 1976 Bill Moran, B.R. Hughes, Don Hastings, and Bill Bagwell all met right here in my home town of Shreveport, Louisiana in the coffee shop of the airport. It was right here that they signed the bylaws and officially created the ABS.

The art of the forged blade was all but lost in the United States at that time. The original goal set by Bill Moran was to one day have 25 members. B.R. Hughes felt that Mr. Moran was being overly optimistic at a number that large.

None of them in their wildest dreams ever thought that the American Bladesmith Society would grow to the size that it has and draw members world wide.

####

I am convinced that there is nothing that the ABS can do to satisfy everyone. The deal is simple. You have to use a blade that you forged and finished yourself. You have to compete in and win one of the competitions. Is it the fault of the ABS when a maker can't afford to come to a competition?

They have a world wide membership and have had participants from various countries around the world. What would they have to do to make everyone happy? Host competitions in every little village in outer Mongolia? Maybe send you an airline ticket and put you up in a motel so you could compete?

What if you compete and don't win? Maybe the ABS should do like the school systems around here and give everybody an award.

*Sheesh*

The people that complain the most are the ones that refuse to actively participate. It's real easy to sit back and tell everyone who is busting their butts to make things happen, that they are doing it all wrong.

When you want something, you can't just sit on the side of a mountain lamenting and spouting off how things ought to be. When you've got a strong belief, get up off your can and make things happen.

That's precisely what Bill Moran, B.R. Hughes, Don Hastings, and Bill Bagwell did. And it didn't happen over night.
 
Terry, a great explanation.Just so there is no misunderstanding out there; the purpose of the ABS is to promote the FORGED blade. These cutting competitions are an ABS event which showcases the talents and abilities of bladesmiths and their work. It educates the public to the capabilities of the smiths and their blades. That the ABS chooses not to promote stock removal or cast blades is not a fault or a problem of the ABS. If stock removal fellows would like to do one of the types of things, I think it is great. Those who would like to compete with stock removal guys; by all means, should do so. BUT; the direction of the ABS is the promotion of the FORGED BLADE.
This does not mean that we have any ill will toward other types of blade. We choose to promote our smiths and our blades. That is why we belong to the organization.
The ABS officers and Board members have done an incredible job for the bladesmiths and their work. If you don't agree with something get activly involved and work for change. It's easy to sit on your hands and bitch. Get involved. There ain't no free rides!
This cutting thing didn't happen overnight. Some fellows have put in several years getting this to where it is now. I think it is a great thing for bladesmiths and the forged blade.
Everybody wants a piece of the pie now. I think that is great, it makes me proud.
Where were all these people for all the years the pie was being made up? Get involved.
All the above comments are my own and only reflect my opinion. mike
 
Terry, I can see that there is a little frustration building in your responses. I hope that I am not the cause. I realize that I am being an armchair advisor and that I am making comments without the benefit of having been there and having done that. You don't know how much I wish I could take part and assist the ABS in events like this, but being located where I am and with it being impossible for me to take huge amounts of time of work, I just don't know how it would be possible for me to be of much help.

I hope that what is being said here is not that if you aren't going to get off your duff and help make things better, then you should keep your mouth shut. In my opinion that would keep a lot of people from trying to help out the only way they can, with suggestions for ways to improve things that can be put forward for consideration. Please do not make people think that because they are not able to actually get out there and take part that their opinions shouldn't matter.
 
Keith,
No, my post was not directed at any one person. I am providing food for thought for the masses. Accurate information is essential. Even though there is just a small handful of us tossing ideas back and forth in this thread, the things we are saying are wide open for the world to view.

The only way to truly understand what the ABS is, what it does, and why things are done the way they are, is to be actively involved and see what's going on in the background. We have to know the history as well as the vision for the future in order to see the whole picture. At that point it becomes crystal clear.

We live in a society (at least here in the US) where the majority is part of the "I-want-what-I-want-and-I-want-it-NOW" frame of mind. Everything has to move at light speed. But the ABS is not 900+ full-time employees working in factory around the clock, producing a product. We are a group of makers, collectors, and knife enthusiasts scattered all over the world, who have to work every day to make a living just like everyone else.

Everyone is supporting the cause financially (which is just as important as doing the physical labor), but when it comes time for some grunt work, it's a small handful that jump in and make things happen, whether it's phone work, paperwork, legal work, leg work, or traveling across the country three days before a Hammer-in to set up everything for the demos, and accommodations for masses.

And everyone works hard with a smile on their faces because they are doing something they truly believe in. I'm going to mention something here that perhaps I shouldn't, but it will possibly prove a point as to what kind of people we have in the ABS. When we hit the ground running last week to get things set up for the Hammer-in and knife show in Maryland, we had a member there -- and I am so very embarrassed because I can't remember his name at the moment -- who was in a wheelchair. And he was there to work! When somebody asked, "Anybody got a screwdriver?", or said "I need a wrench to hook up this propane bottle", or "We need to re-route this cable for the PA system", you'd hear him holler "I got it!", and off he'd go at top speed. He believed in the cause and was going to be an active part of it come Hell or high water. That's the kind of people we have in the ABS.

So yeah, I can get a little testy about some things when it comes to discussions regarding the ABS. That's because I am a believer in the philosophies of the ABS, and I am active, and I do understand things from the inside that is invisible to most folks. There is so much going on in the background that people don't know about. For example, the ABS is pushing to start working with young folks and youth organizations like the Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. And it's not for greedy reasons like grooming the next generation of knife collectors, though that could be a nice by-product of the deal. These young people are our future voters and lawmakers, and one or two of the may be the next superstar Master Smith one day.

Let me say in closing that even though I get a little testy from time to time, I am not some vindictive, unforgiving, grudge holding grump. I have little disagreements with my wife sometimes, but I don't take all her clothes and sling them out in the front yard. We're family. The same holds true here. Prime example: Ed and I have butted heads a little on the forums occasionally due to differences in opinion. I imagine that Ed is like me and takes it all in stride. The knifemaking community is like a family too. If I run into Ed and he offers his hand, I'm not going to spit on his shoe because we aren't in perfect agreement on everything. Nope, I'll shake his hand and tell him "Let's go get something to eat and see what we can find to argue about". :D
 
I would like to encourage the ABS to document some standards for cutting competitions so that a few people don't have to travel the whole country to run competitions.

I disagree with Keith in that I believe that it is more interesting to have a variety of events but I do feel that pools of standard events can be developed to draw from for an appropriate level of uniformity.

I will even be so bold as to begin recommending some standardized guidelines that I believe are in line with the past practices of the ABS Cutting competitions.

Eligible knives:
Blade length not to exceed 9"
All competition knives must have a wrist thong
Knives examined by judges after each event with chipped or rolled edges disqualifying the contestant from the remainder of the competition.

Mandatory Events
Timed horizontal 2x4 chop; Points awarded for 3 fastest times.

Free Hanging Rope Cut; 1" Manilla Rope no more than 6" from bottom. I don't know if points are awarded for the number of consecutive cuts or maximum number of ropes bundled together.

Keenness Pool: I would recommend at least two tests from this pool at different points in the competition.
The only two tests that I have seen specifically mentioned for this pool are the Cigarette Paper Cut and Business Card Filet. Please post others along with how points are awarded.

I really believe that well documented criteria for a competition can be developed so that any Master Smith could oversee a sanctioned ABS Cutting Competition and any Knife Show promoter who was interested could sponsor a very competitive Cutting Competition open to both forged and Stock Removal Blades.
 
The current standards are very similar to the suggestions you outlined. I cannot comment on the point system simply because I don't remember. It is very fair though. You can completely fail to cut the rope, and maybe even miss the time on the 2x4 chop (I mentioned these because they are standards due to tradition), and still win the competition.

The eligible knives are in accordance with the standards for the ABS Journeyman and Master Smith test knives. That is:

  • A knife that you forged and finished
  • Maximum blade length = 10"
  • Maximum overall length = 15"
  • Maximum blade width = 2"
  • The knife must have at least one visible pin securing the handle (safety)
  • The knife must have a lanyard hole and a wrist strap/teather (safety)
  • A fairly new addition is that the knife must have a sheath or case, and must be kept in the sheath or case until you are up and in position to make the cut.

Another safety issue was recently put in place as well. When you approach whatever is to be cut, you must wait until the head judge yells "Clear", which signifies that the setup man is clear of the knife. We have had some very close calls in the past when an anxious competitor made the cut before the setup man could get out of the way. I believe that failing to wait for the "Clear" signal will now get you disqualified from the entire competition. So this one is very important to remember. Of course all the guidelines are explained clearly just before the competition begins.

Each knife is inspected for construction method by the judges. If any of the judges feel that the knife is unsafe, then you will not be allowed to compete. Also, each knife is examined after each cut.

They are very strict now on the dimensions mentioned above. We had a few at the Moran Hammer-in that were longer than the 15" maximum overall length. But like I've said before, the ABS does try to be extremely fair. In this case, we did have some grinders setup for demos and the guys were allowed to grind off some of the length from their handles to bring the knives into accordance with the standards.

One fellow (bless his heart) found that when he ground off enough of his handle to get the overall length within the standards, he no longer had a lanyard hole. But we found someone in the audience I believe who had a drill, and he was allowed to drill a new lanyard hole. In case you haven't caught what I said a few times before, the ABS is trying hard to keep things fair.

There was a happy ending for these guys because we were at a Hammer-in and had the tools to bring their knives up to the standard. If you are going to do a competition at a knife show, you will darn well want to have the dimensions within the specs.
 
Hey Terry,

In your opinion, is any of this info reaching the appropriate folks at the ABS. I know that Jerry Fisk sometimes visits these threads, but we can converese until we are all blue in the face, and what for if no one that can make a difference is listening.

I would still like to know why Bill Burke's request for information has gone unanswered. A simple "we're not quite ready to expand yet" would be better than nothing.

I agree with Ed in that there needs to be regional judges trained that would be responsible for events within their region. Hopefully guys like you and Jerry wouldn't have to travel from the middle of Arkansas and Louisiana to Maryland to set things up, unless you were originally planning on it that is. I have a sneaking suspicion that it was a nice vacation for one or both of you though.

Here's another thought... I understand that these cutting competitions were originally geared around hammer-ins, but, if the intent is to promote the forged blade, wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense to expend the efforts by focusing the competitions at knife shows where there is a much larger and diverse audience? I don't know for sure, but aren't the hammer-ins limited in size to around 100 or so participants, most of which already know about the capabilities of forged blades?

Food for thought,
Rick
 
Terry: Yes we do disagre, but we do not hold grudges. Our discussions have resulted is some good thoughts. Yes I will shake your hand any time.

You posted an excellent discussion, explaining the circumstances surrounding the comepetition. This was good. Thank you!

Some feel that any ctiticism about ABS functions is bashing the organization. Critics come in many forms, knowledgable and ignorant and anywhere in between. Some wish to groom the organization, others wish to kill it. Growth and actual progress comes to those who can honestly hear what the critics mean. A lot of you work very hard for the ABS significantly contribute to its progress.

I sincerely appreciate the goals and objectives of the ABS as stated in their charter. It is from that vantage point that I direct my comments to the world of knives.

Officials come and go, but the ABS will in all probability survive if we do our part.
 
Rick,
I think just about everything you mentioned is already underway to some degree. The ABS is already putting competitions in some shows. For example, there was one very recently at the Spirit of Steel show. So we know that they are at least working that angle. How many will they do and when? I don't know. I'm sure that the ABS will continue to expand the Hammer-ins as well, but to which states at what times, I don't have a clue. Those types of things are up to the Board. And like I've said, I in no way represent the ABS in any official capacity. You can't get any lower on the totem pole than I am.

The shows would have to be easier on everyone I'd think, except for the poor guy who has to haul equipment. I'm sure that more Hammer-in's will be done, but I can tell you those are a real booger. As far as the size of the Hammer-in's, no, it wouldn't be limited to some arbitrary number like 100. It would depend on how much room was available on the grounds, lodging capacity in the area, etc. I believe that the one we just had in Maryland had about 300 people. I was not able to attend the one in Michigan, so I don't know what the turnout was there.

Another thing that is strictly conjecture on my part, is that someone will more than likely be assigned to fill in for Jerry at some of these things. The boy's plate is mighty full, and I don't know how he's been able to do everything he's done for so long.

As far as it being like a vacation, well not like any vacation I've ever been on. I went to bed at midnight, then got up at 3:00am and drove 2 1/2 hours to Jerry's place. From there we drove 12 more hours to Knoxville, Tennessee. At least I think it was Knoxville. I'll tell you after 14 1/2 hours on the road with only 3 hours of sleep, I can't guarantee where the heck I was.

All I know is that I got in the motel room, took off my glasses and my shoes, then sat on the bed for a minute. The next thing I knew the alarm went off and it was 6:00am. It was another 7 - 8 hours on the road to Frederick, Maryland.

The Hammer-in didn't start till Friday, but we had to be there on Wednesday because we had to have time to set everything up. We hit the ground running early Thursday morning. Jim Batson had us stepping and fetching like our butts were on fire.

As far as why Bill Burke's request for information has gone unanswered, well I haven't answered because the question wasn't directed at me, and I don't know the answer anyway.

I'm just a gopher. Somebody say's "Boy, pick that up and put it over there", and I pick it up and put it over there. That's just the way I like it too. The decision makers have too many headaches to deal with all the time. Me? Shoot, just tell me what job needs to be done and what time we break for lunch. :D
 
Hey fellas,

Jerry,

You made a historical reference to Maryland. My in-laws are from Baltimore. As a matter of fact, Maryland was the HOT SPOT of confederate sentiment during the Civil War. Baltimore was the site of some pretty nasty encounters. So, if we are going back that far for proof about boundaries to the deep south...we need to be accurate. However, your point was well taken. Unfortunately, us folks west of the Missippi are pretty spread out. No doubt as things catch on a yearly hammer-in will pop up somewhere.

Shane
 
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