unfamiliar handle

[Johan van Zyl]

Hi there all you good people in the ol' US! This is newbie me with my scanty knowledge of khukuris. I only have two standard size khukuris and to me, this one is not typical.
However, I did find some photos of this type. On pages 81, 88, 104 and 105 of the book THE GUN DIGEST BOOK OF KNIVES (4th edition) by Lewis & Combs, pictures show khukuris corresponding exactly to this one, as far as it is possible to ascertain. The captions below the photos refer to it as the "standard Indian Army khukri". It has a total length of 17 inches.
This khukuri blade is slightly more massive than my Khukuri House Service Ceremonial. The blade measures 12 inches. It is well made and seems to be of good quality.
To me, it has a uniquely distinct handle, made of dense light brown wood, where the metal of the blade in the handle area is flat and not narrow and pointed as in other khukuri's. The blade is therefore visible all around the handle. The handle is 5 inches long and not very well finished. It is joined strongly to the blade with two metal rivets of large diameter (½ inch). The handle rings are not made according to rigid configuration, but instead consists of one large rounded ridge only. The undecorated buttcap is made of the same metal as the rivets and seems to be mild steel.
The scabbard is beautifully made of water buffalo leather, with frog and a brass tip which is not sharply pointed as in #1, but rounded. The karda, with handle made of wood, is present, but the chakma is unfortunately missing.
Could someone please throw some light on this item. I would really appreciate it! Thanks, you all!

 

[Chris S.]

Johan,

Does it look like anything this?

If it does, you've got an Indian Army khukri. I've never owned one, so I'll let some of the more knowledgeable guys provide the comparison/contrast to a Nepalese blade.

Chris S.
Orlando

 

[Johan van Zyl]

I'm still working out how Bladeforum works. I mean for this thank you note to Chris to appear below his kind reply to my query on my khukuri with the unfamiliar handle. Yes, Chris, it is EXACTLY what my knife looks like! Now, is my knife a true-blue Indian Army Khukuri, or do I have a GOOD COPY made for the tourist trade?? Will I ever be able to know?

 

[Berkley]

Johan,
The full-tang handles with riveted scales are known as panna butta (riveted through) or chiruwa (split), and have been used on military issue khukuris since sometime before WWI. Usually military issue khukuris will bear stamped code markings indicating date/place of manufacture and/or the British broad arrow acceptance stamp. The design you have, although apparently issued at some time in the past, is commonly sold commercially, as at this site. Here is a link to a thread on the HI Forum which discusses these knives; not, I fear, in a very favorable way

.
Berk

 

[Craig Gottlieb]

One tip for telling an old khukuri from a new one is how much rust/pitting the blade has. Sure, a rusty blade doesn't mean an old khukuri. But, conversely, a clean shiney blade with no wear and tear almost always means a modern version - be it tourist or genuine. The best way to tell those apart is to go out and use it. If it breaks or doesn't work, it's a tourist model. If it actually works, then it's a real khukuri.


------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor

 

[Johan van Zyl]

Hi there. Having had such marvellous help and advice from new friends in the khukuri collecting fraternity, I would like to give an update on my quest for information on my standard Indian Army khukuri. Here it is, for the enjoyment of my new friends:

"On pages 81, 88, 104 and 105 of the book THE GUN DIGEST BOOK OF KNIVES (4th edition) by Lewis & Combs, pictures show khukuris corresponding exactly to mine, as far as it is possible to ascertain. The captions below the photos refer to it as the "standard Indian Army khukri". In some catalogues of American dealers nearly identical photos are shown, the captions of which indicate it to be Indian military issue. It has a total length of 17 inches. Collectors on Bladeforum have submitted for me a photo of an “Indian Army khukri” and it seems to be exactly the same thing. This might, however, NOT be an actual army issue khukuri, as those are generally better finished than the ones made for the tourist trade. This one seems to be very new: no blemishes or any sign of previous use.

"The blade, probably hand-forged high carbon steel, is slightly more massive than my Service Ceremonial khukuri, with a deep, neat groove on each side. It measures 12 inches. It is well made and seems to be of good quality. There was a faint broad arrow emblem acid-etched into the blade, but a few swipes with fine emery paper obliterated it.

"The handle is uniquely distinct, made of native hardwood, where the metal of the blade in the handle area is flat and not narrow and pointed as in other khukuri's. The blade is therefore visible all around the handle. The handle is 5 inches long. The handle of my knife is unfortunately not very well finished, so I can only assume it was NOT made by a government contractor and released as surplus to whichever dealer was able to procure it. It is joined strongly to the blade with two metal rivets of large diameter (½ inch). The handle rings are not made according to rigid traditional configuration, but instead consists of one large rounded ridge only. The undecorated buttcap, referred to as the “standard metal buttplate”, is made of the same metal as the rivets and seems to be mild steel. I spent half of last Saturday (14th) doing some hard shaping work on the handle and tang, and as a purist I am now 100% happier with it. Wish you could see it now!

The scabbard, also referred to as “regulation sheath”, is beautifully made of water buffalo leather, with frog and a brass tip which is not sharply pointed as in the Service Ceremonial, but rounded. The karda, with handle made of wood, is present, but the chakma is unfortunately missing."

Well, there it is! Not complete yet, but I will be scouting out more information with an eagle's eye. Wish my knife could tell me when and where and by whom it was made. (Sigh..) Now I am thinking of purchasing a very good kuhukri, like an Ang Khola. Lalit Lama tells me there is a distributor in Johannesburg, South Africa, and I will be e-mailing him now. Doubt, however, if I will get one for less than R1000. In our currency, that is equivalent to 333 loaves of white bread, for comparison. You can work out for yourself what an Ang Knola costs you in the USA. The standard Indian Army cost me the equivalent of 133 loaves. Sorry about this grumbling and groaning, but the South African Rand seems not to be worth much at present (more than 7 Rands to the dollar).
Regards to you all!

 

[Chris S.]

Johan,

You could buy a genuine Service Number One from Craig for about R483 (= 7 x USD 69.00).

Or a 16" Ang Khola for about R693 (= 7 x USD 99.00).

There is shipping and insurance to figure into the equation, but I think you'll still come out under R1000.

Chris

BTW--Johan, do you have crocodiles in your region?




[This message has been edited by Chris S. (edited 10-16-2000).]

 

[Craig Gottlieb]

And just in time. We're out of SN1s until today, when I go to collect the "afghan" shipment. I think I'm expecting about 200 SN1s. You know, it's funny. I consume more SN1s than the British Government does!

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor

 

[Johan van Zyl]

Chris, you ask whether we have crocodiles in my region? The simple answer is No. But I smell a witty anecdote coming. So lay it on us, Chris!

 

[Chris S.]

Whenever I go fishing, I usually get pretty far off the beaten path where the fishing is better. Because of this, I make it a point to read any article I come across regarding snakes and alligators. Between alligators and crocodiles, I've read that crocodiles are *very* aggresive, and alligators are fairly shy.

That said...

This past August I was fishing off a canal bank near the St. Johns river. I get a strike, and it turns out to be a catfish.

I don't eat catfish, and I don't like catching them because they're such a pain to get off the hook. So I land the catfish, get the pliers out of my tackle box, and they're rusted half-open. Aarrgghh! The catfish is swishing around in the grass at my feet and I'm openly swearing while trying to wrestle with the rusted pliers. I finally get the pliers working, unhook the fish, toss it back in the water, and turn around to put the pliers back in my tackle box...

Maybe it was because I was running my mouth, or the catfish was tossing in the grass, but I didn't hear anything moving behind me.
At this point I'm 40% facinated and 60% panicked. So I grab my stuff, snap the photo and move down the canal bank.

Everything I read about alligators said that gators were nothing to worry about if you don't disturb them. I really wanted to know if this was a chance meeting, or if it would turn in my direction--it didn't. The only thing I can figure is that it had a nest back in that covered marsh and my swearing got its attention, so it came out to investigate.

I ask about crocs because I don't think the same situation with a crocodile would have ended with me getting the chance to take a second picture. But I haven't talked to anyone from croc country, yet.

Chris S.

PS--I only wish I had thought to toss a soda can into the frame to give a reference of scale.

But that would have been littering because I wasn't going to go back and pick it up.

(Yes, I know I could've tied the can to my fishing line and casted it over and then reeled it back! But next time you almost evacuate yourself in your pants tell me how clearly you were thinking at the moment.)


(Did that fix the photo problems?)
[This message has been edited by Chris S. (edited 10-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Chris S. (edited 10-18-2000).]

 

[Craig Gottlieb]

I've got to see that picture! But to get it to show up, you need to surf to the actual picture's URL, and not to the URL of the page that the picture is sitting on. To do that, click on the picture until you can't "go" any further.

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor

 

[Johan van Zyl]

We're digressing from the forum topic, but let me this once talk for a moment about South African crocs. Yes, it is true, our crocs are more "aggressive". Rural South Africa has very many legends and also documented stories about giant crocs aopparantly preying on humans who come to the waters edge to draw water or wash clothes. We even have an old, well known poem about Amakeia, a Black girl who was caught by a big croc and devoured. A beautiful poem, alive with rhythm and rhyme. Literally translated, the first few lines go like this:

Quickly along the path skips Amakeia.
Mirthful sounds the song
accompanying the "clingaling" of her anklets.
On the footpath she, alone,
around her only the shadows,
on her head is borne the gourd
in solemn equilibrium....

And so on. Now the crocodile has a very small brain. With such a small capacity, it is understandable that a croc's actions are from pure instinct. Its methods are therefore well known to experts, who say a croc is totally predictable: If it wants food, and it happens to see you in front of it, it will go for you. And that, saith the prophet, is that...

Fellow forumites, it seems this topic about the "unfamiliar handle" has been covered quite well. Please be so kind as to look at my topic on the "Ang Khola". I need to know so many things about this type of khukuri! I thank you most heartily in anticipation for any and all replies!

 

[Blackdog]

Chris S,

I can only say my friend that you're a better man than I am. Had I turned around to find a gator at my heels, I would, shortly thereafter, have been shopping for (A) clean underware (B) replacement fishing tackle and (C) a new camera. This of course would have been predecated on the fact that I found and swallowed enough heart seizure medication to keep the old pump running. I can see the local headlines now:
Missing Fisherman Found Holding Rusty Pliers Atop 200 Foot Cypress Tree

Johan,

I had the unique misfortune of witnessing the handiwork of Southern African Crocs about 15 years ago in Mozambique. An aircraft had crashed into a swamp in Sofala Province. Some of the occupants did survive the crash, but did not survive the crocodiles in the swamp. Suffice to say that since that incident I have been unable to look at Crocs or Gators with a detached point of view. Be careful where you wander my friend.

------------------
Blackdog

 

[Chris S.]

Careful where I wander, you know it, Blackdog.

I didn't worry too much about gators until this happened.

What totally freaks me out are cottonmouths and diamondbacks. For some reason, I'm not good at spotting them. I mean, if a rattler was laying in the grass, and you marked it with a couple of those underground cable flags, I'd still step on it.

Chris S.

 

[Lt. Dan]

No crocks or gators in these parts, and cottonmouths are very rare. Rattlers yes, but it's the copperheads that cause me much undue worryation. Khukuris have been coming along for hiking and fishing lately more than Smitty (S&W), but I may rethink that some...as there's an important niche snakeshot fills very well. One of David Innes' billhooks could help put more real estate betwixt the pit viper and me though.

 

[Blackdog]

Aw cummon guys, not snakes. Sheesh, why'd you have to go and mention snakes. Damn I hate snakes. Evil, vile, slithery creatures with them little beady eyes. Layin there all quiet just waitin to scare the hell out of you or give you a little nip if you got too close.

In the mountains of PA where I grew up, it was full of snakes, Rattlers and Copperheads. As much time as I spent in the bush I never did get used to them. Like Lt. Dan, I carried either a .38 spl or a .45 ACP with a snake load ready to fire. One morning during the Spring Turkey season, I killed 4 copperheads just walking back to the car. As many as I shot, there always seemed to be plenty more around.

Sheesh, snakes!!

------------------
Blackdog
Visit Gurkha House
BladeForums Sponsor

 

[Chris S.]

Well, look at the bright side...

At least we don't have komodo dragons.

Those things are like a pit viper, gator, and land shark rolled into one.

"You soon pass the sign that warns, 'Dangerous area - watch out.
Komodo crossing. Be silent.' The park service men tell us that silence is necessary not to avoid scaring the dragons, but to avoid attracting them. The dragons are large, ferocious predators that are fully capable of killing and eating a human being."

"KOMODOS FEAST on a pig. Their curved, serrated teeth easily tear through flesh. Meat caught in the serrations supports the growth of septic bacteria."

These things gotta be the worst.

(Yeah, I know...WAY off topic, my appoligies in advance. However, there's a few instances where even your trusty khukuri won't help much. I hate when that happens.)

[This message has been edited by Chris S. (edited 10-20-2000).]

 

[Johan van Zyl]

The Forum Manager is going to kill us...
The thing about a Komodo Dragon is that it is not a man-killer. Whereas it is true that it can kill a man, compare it with a lion. The lion breaks your neck with a swipe of its paw, or it bites into your neck and cuts off your windpipe. You are dead before it begins to chew on you. Same with most other predators. But take a man, tie him up so he can't move, and put him in the path of a Dragon. He'll tear off chunk for chunk before you die from loss of blood. That's grisly! If I HAD to choose between a croc and a dragon, I'll take the croc anytime.
Now something about khukuris to stall the Forum Manager. I would very much like to enlarge my collection, but because I'm so isolated, my own khukuris are the only ones I ever see. The Ang Khola I am in the process of ordering, I will get sight unseen. Probably Roger Mallabone of Johannesburg will select a nice one for me from his stock, and I will be very happy. I believe he sells khukuris which he gets from Lalit Lama of Khukuri House. I am 54 years old and had never seen a khukuri until this month. Now I have two (not counting the letter openers). I have READ about khukuris, but in a distracted sort of way. At these prices they go for (together with the falling Rand) I find them very expensive indeed. Just the thought of someone testing them to destruction for the joy of knowing how strong they are, gives me the shudders. One last thought which has dawned on me: don't we all possess COPIES of khukuris? What is an ORIGINAL khukuri? Maybe original khukuris are as follows:
1.- All khukuris made by khamis and the like, and sold to locals for household use.
2.- All khukuris made by official military agents and issued to serving soldiers.
3.- All authenticated khukuris housed in museums or private collections.
ALL THE OTHERS ARE COPIES. I think I am stirring up a good argument here. There are loopholes in my own statements, I admit, but let us get the opinions going. I don't think this has been discussed yet. I look foreward to enjoying this with you.

 

[Lt. Dan]

Thanks for the post, Johan. Good stuff, to be sure. After a little head-scratching, I've come to opine (until somebody gives me better reason) that the khukuris from GH and KH are the real deal; being made by bona-fide kamis for real use, and of fine quality.

Let's take the SN1 for example. This is THE actual knife made for the present-day Gurkhas, and made by the very same hands on the same forges. These kamis also make other styles. It might seem reasonable to say that all indigenous khukuris that are well-made for hard use and in traditional fashion will meet the criteria, but I suppose this could be argued. However, the SN1 would have to measure up to your notions.

While there are is good stuff by different kamis from various regions of Nepal, the GH and KH wares are truly official. At least the Gurkhas seem to think so, and who am I to tell them otherwise?!