Unfinished tang

airyq

airyq

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
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I have several slipjoints where the top of the tang (the part that you see looking down from the top when the knife is closed) is unfinished or partly unfinished, meaning that while the rest of the blade is mirror polished, the top of the tang is left rough and dark or there is a rough dark patch. Some times it looks like a raised seam running lengthwise on the top of the tang.

Strangely however, I do not see the same on the bottom part of the tang while the rounded end part of the tang is always finished smooth and polished.

The size of the patch, the roughness and the darkness varies from knife to knife.

While I do not expect the entire blade to be mirror polished, I would expect that at least the top of the tang to be finished smooth with a least a satin finish.

Two which are particularly obvious are a Queen whittler and a Schatt & Morgan stockman that I own. I was particularly disappointed with the Schatt & Morgan, even though it was just patches and not the entite top of the tang, as it was my first Schatt & Morgan and I was expecting perfection or close to it.

I am not trying to flame Queen but due to what I have read here about Queen, I had higher expectations. I have also encountered the same problem with other slipjoint makes as well but less so with Case. In Case knifes, while the tops of the tangs are not as well finished as the rest of the blade, it looks that at least some one tried to give it a grind and some polishing.

In contrast, "modern" knifes like Spyderco and Benchmade always have nicely finished tangs.

Function does not seem to be affected by this "flaw". Not an issue with a work knife but it is unsightly for a safe queen that will be picked up and scrutinised.

I am sure that you guys must have encountered this as well.

Would appreciate your views on:

1. whether this is normal and to be expected in a slipjoint?

2. is this a flaw in workmanship that would justify returning the knife?
 
I ve seenthis on queens also. Some of the carved stag bone I have. Most manufacturers are good about polishing the spine, but some miss it. Camillus is another one that hardly ever polishes the spine (which is what I believe you are referring to?)
 
John, I'm not certain, but I think he's referring not to the spine, but to the part of the tang just behind the spine that you can see with the blade closed.

I'll check my Queens tonight, but I think I may have some knives with this feature. What I've seen is a black patch of completely unfinished metal. If that was the only complaint I had about a knife, and everything else about it was fine, I might be inclined to hang onto it. But I have to admit that I'm struggling with what is reasonable to expect from a $50 slipjoint made in a small, old factory like Queen's.
 
Now if you mean the inside of the tang, just back from the spine, the part that comes into contact with the backspring (you can see it whent he balde is closed), that black stuff will be the residue from being polished (jewelers rouge). You can wipe it out well enough with a Q-tip, or cloth. Its never polished as it receives constant friction when the blade is opened and closed.
 
I checked my 4 Queens and found the feature you describe on all of them. It's not a film or buildup of polish or oil -- it appears to be a "cavity" of unfinished metal. It doesn't bother me, as I don't expect every nook and cranny to be perfectly finished on this type of knife.

The feature was not present on my Schatt & Morgan Mountain Man.
 
Rev,

KeithAM got it right in post #3.

I wash all my new knives with soap and a toothbrush to get rid of the polishing compound residue, which is a black crud. After the wash, the bottom of the tang and the end of the tang can be seen to have been finished but the top just looks unfinished.

I suppose the end of the tang has to be finished so that the spring can slide smoothly on it when the knife is being opened and closed. However, from what I see, the bottom of the tang is always finished better than the top. I find it strange that trouble is taken to finish the bottom of the tang but not the top considering that the top is what you see when the knife is closed, the first thing that you would see when you are inspecting a knife before buying.

I understand that the top of the tang is in contact with the backspring when the knife is open and a mirror polish will get scratched in no time but leaving it totally unfinished does not seem right to me.

As KeithAM has seen, some times the unfinished part is like a cavity, meaning that while most of the top of the tang appears to have been ground and finished, it has not been ground level and there still remains a cavity or depression of unfinished steel that was not ground off and remains black.

Perhaps, the makers are limited by how much they can grind off the top of the tang before lock up is affected? This can be remedied by making a slightly bigger blade and grinding it clean, which is done for the rest of the blade.

Strange also is that the price of the knife does not seem to be a determining factor. I have cheaper ones (and I am not talking about Commie China slave labour made knives) which are better finished than the more expensive ones.

For all the criticisms that have been hurled at Case (some justified), I find that my Case knives generally seem to be better finished.

Perhaps slippies are still being seen as cheap working knives and most makers do not want to spend the effort cleaning up the top of the tang. However, these days, I would guess that almost equal numbers are bought to be collected as bought to be used. Can any one with a custom slippie provide some input?

In any event, I see that I am not alone. Perhaps this is just some thing that us slippie lovers have to put up with.
 
I just checked a number of knives, from modern Queens, Case, and Schrade to vintage knives that must be 60+ years old when they made 'em right. Every last one is like this.

Edited to add:

I checked a SAK. I don't have any in mint but it appears far more finished.

Victorinox sells millions and millions every year, so not surprisingly they use machines for a heck of a lot more than many other companies do. This produces a much more consistent product. I think this would explain it.
 
The part of the tang on the edge side of the blade is ground because that is part of the fitting of the knife. The kick there determines how the blade sits when the knife is closed. To my knowledge, no fitting operation takes place on the opposite side of the tang. The end of the tang is ground to smooth the opening and closing of the blade (on blades without half-stops, on those with half-stops it is typically not ground). Thus, you have what appears to be finished and unfinished. It's not a matter of finishing really, but of utilitarian machine marks.
 
The older knives were finished a little better, but there is also something you have to consider. Almost everyone now uses rolled steel. These blades are stamped out of this rolled steel and its cause small stress cracks, "uneven" places and other little "defects". On older forged blades the finish is almost always much better.

They could clean up the back, but this part most everyone never looks at. Aside from that the work involved in cleaning everything up, would be allot. Ive been making knives for years, slip joints require the most work (of course I would make sure mine are finished to my own satisfaction).
True, if they were to clean them up, the knive swould have better "walk and talk", but they have to compete with foreign markets and its easier for them to leave that part alone and just keep going. Im not defending poor quality by any means. But, think of this, make a slip joint and see how much work and time it takes.

True, they have machines, much of it is machines (and automated), but there is still allot of work involved. I wish they would take more time, but the part you guys are talking about is not critical to the knife operating. You will notice a difference, if the knife has a bad uneven place on the back tang that causes it to open "rough", but otherwise it should hardly be noticeable.

Mark is right about the kick being ground. It has to be to make the blade sit correctly when it is closed.
 
Rev,

I think you are right about knife companies not wanting to spend time finishing a non crucial part of the blade.

It just so happens that the Queen and the Schatt that I mentioned are D2 and ATS 34 respectively.

Case SS, Buck 420HC and plain carbon steels seem to get a better finish.

So far as the trouble needed to be taken to finish a non crucial part of the blade, the lesser steels are easier to finish and therefore get a better finish.

As always, you guys are a treasure trove of info and a pleasure to have a discussion with.
 
It would take probably 30 seconds on a belt to fix the problem, but when you add up that times 10,000 knives, well it adds up, and they probably do not want to spend the money on the extra labor.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read someplace that Case and some other manufacturers polish their blades by tumbling them with some kind of polishing medium. That would explain the better looking finish on the backs of the tangs as well as the rounded tangs and spines on some knives. I've seen new factory knives where the spine and backspring don't even make full contact due to the rounding. My Queen and S&M swingguards meet like they're supposed to.

DaveJ
 
DaveJ said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read someplace that Case and some other manufacturers polish their blades by tumbling them with some kind of polishing medium. That would explain the better looking finish on the backs of the tangs as well as the rounded tangs and spines on some knives. I've seen new factory knives where the spine and backspring don't even make full contact due to the rounding. My Queen and S&M swingguards meet like they're supposed to.

DaveJ
Click to expand...

I believe you are correct about the Case tumbling operation. Ironically, some of the folks who crab about that as a QC issue for Case, preferring the look of the square spines, etc., also crab about the back end of the spine poking their hands. :D
 
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