Unpopular opinion about "Super steels"

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Jan 21, 2019
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I am no expert in metallurgy or knife steels. But I think the criterion for super steels should be toughness over wear resistance.
For example, most consider 14c28n or 420HC to be mediocre steels at best, and I assume the most glorified tough steel is CPM 3V, yet nobody refers to it as a super steel.
As someone said here before: "a bent and dulled knife isn't the most useful tool, but a broken one is even less so"
 
Other than choppers, the common experience for the vast majority people is that they do not use a knife harshly enough to break it in their everyday use. But they do use it enough to dull it. Therefore edge retention is typically valued over toughness, and blade steels are typically evaluated by how long they hold an edge.
 
Once Amazon switched from boxes to those bubble baggies I stopped worrying about toughness ;p

...Which is a light way to say the vast majority of my cutting with a pocket knife takes no toughness at all (besides its influence on edge holding). Zip ties is probably the extent.

Depends more on your cutting as context.

But also, I don't think this argument is unpopular. In fact the last 5-10 years the knife community heavily shifted from edge holding as the only thing that matters to toughness mattering. That's when we got more cruwear, and for the last few years Magnacut is all the buzz when it gives up edge retention for bumping up toughness.
 
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Other than choppers, the common experience for the vast majority people is that they do not use a knife harshly enough to break it in their everyday use. But they do use it enough to dull it. Therefore edge retention is typically valued over toughness, and blade steels are typically evaluated by how long they hold an edge.
As usual, Frank is the voice of reason.
 
I am no expert in metallurgy or knife steels. But I think the criterion for super steels should be toughness over wear resistance.
For example, most consider 14c28n or 420HC to be mediocre steels at best, and I assume the most glorified tough steel is CPM 3V, yet nobody refers to it as a super steel.
As someone said here before: "a bent and dulled knife isn't the most useful tool, but a broken one is even less so"
And that is what makes the world go 'round.
 
Yeah I don't care about steels as much as I do heat treatment and geometry.

The introduction of a strop really levels the playing field. Simple steels will get back hair popping with just a few licks, no diamond spray needed.

It all evens out and ends up a matter of preference. Easier to sharpen/less edge retention or harder to sharpen/better edge retention.
 
Geometry is the Only thing that matters.
Everything else is ignorance , pomp, and bravado.

*I'm generous, so I'll say a tiny bit of convenience if stainless is truly needed.
You know that's not true. We get your point...but I think it's better made with all the relevant facts...

Otherwise one simplistic statement will simply be exchanged for another...and be equally illegitimate.

If heat treat and metallurgy are taken out of the equation, I'm gonna bet that the end result is only going to be satisfactory for a very short time.

Just my opinion from the cheap seats.
 
You know that's not true. We get your point...but I think it's better made with all the relevant facts...

Otherwise one simplistic statement will simply be exchanged for another...and be equally illegitimate.

If heat treat and metallurgy are taken out of the equation, I'm gonna bet that the end result is only going to be satisfactory for a very short time.

Just my opinion from the cheap seats.

Yes, I'm exaggerating to make a point...no pun.
You are right.

But still, it's Mostly true.

I pride myself on seeking out the optimal heat treaters for the steels I use, But..... I know in reality "just" Ok heat treatment would be enough if I manipulate and massage the primary and secondary angles to cut what's needed.

A barely hard knife can chop through nails if the angles are matched correctly for the task .


Same with wear resistance.(I Love Cruwear)
But a very, very thin knife that is dull as can be, will still cut, just because how thin it is.... But a hard, super steel knife that is .100" behind the edge, and ground to 45 degrees per side, Won't cut good.

*But yes, I'm talking in extremes to show what most miss

Edit to add, and I like being an outlier/unpopular
 
Yes, I'm exaggerating to make a point...no pun.
You are right.
But still, it's Mostly true.
I pride myself on seeking out the optimal heat treaters for the steels I use, But..... I know in reality "just" Ok heat treatment would be enough if I manipulate and massage the primary and secondary angles to cut what's needed.
A barely hard knife can chop through nails if the angles are matched correctly for the task .

Agreed. When I spent a weekend at Rob Simonich's home in Clancy, MT, I watched him chop through metal objects and coins with Talonite, which was pretty low on the HRC scale.

I wasn't disputing the intent of your earlier statement, but in the interest of accuracy and not getting newbs confused...I had to raise an objection.
(I spent a lot of time making sure I had my facts right from the witness stand...some things are hard to change.)
 
Other than choppers, the common experience for the vast majority people is that they do not use a knife harshly enough to break it in their everyday use. But they do use it enough to dull it. Therefore edge retention is typically valued over toughness, and blade steels are typically evaluated by how long they hold an edge.

I agree with this. With the addition of geometry when possible. If I can choose between two different blades with the same edgeholding characteristics, I always prefer the one with thinner edge/blade stock.

It's all about matching the steel/heat treat/geometry with the desired function. For example, for many years I kept a stainless Opinel #8 in my lunch bag for cutting fruit, which I did every day with that knife. Fruit doesn't require an abrasion resistant steel, and the thin blade stock and thin edge of the Opinel make it a superb fruit cutter. Being easy to resharpen is frosting on the cake. The advantage of a tough steel is the ability to use thinner edges, which makes a big difference in perceived ease of cutting.

On the other hand, if I am going to do a lot of cutting in abrasive material, a high vanadium alloy is definitely a better choice. And a tough high vanadium steel is even better if the cutting of hard materials such as zip ties and other hard plastics is involved, or if regular contact with staples is a possibility. The very high abrasion resistance alloys such as Rex 121 might have chipping issues in that situation.

A few years ago, just for giggles, I did a head to head comparison of a number of knives cutting a variety of materials to simulate various EDC tasks. Cardboard, strapping tape, plastic jugs, and seasoned pine. Included were knives in S90V, S30V, Cruwear, XHP, K390, CPM-154, Rex 45, ZDP-189, Spy27, and Maxamet. It was a long test and my hand was completely exhausted afterward from all of the cutting. Perfect comparison would be difficult because of different geometries between the knives, but I did make an interesting observation. I tried to make sure that each knife had about the same edge angle and sharpness at the start. At first, my K390 Delica had much lower perceived force to cut compared to my S90V Native (most likely due to the thinner edge and blade stock on the Delica). The XHP Chaparral also performed quite well, again most likely due to the thin edge and blade stock. But as the test continued, the S90V Native caught up and in the end took noticeably less force to cut cardboard than the K390 Delica. I was surprised to see this, since the K390 Delica has the same vanadium content as the S90V Native, is a tougher steel, and is run at a higher Rc (which may have reduced the toughness advantage). There's something about S90V, at least from my experience. And XHP (Chaparral) and Cruwear (PM3) were not far behind, either. XHP was a real surprise because it doesn't have the high vanadium content of the others, yet it did really well, not just for perceived ease of cutting but in actual edge sharpness, and it did better than the S30V Buck Vantage I used for that test.

It should be noted that in that test I did more cutting with each knife than I typically do in a year of EDC, so I tend to gravitate to knives with good edgeholding and thin edge/blade stock when possible rather than just stick with S90V for everything.
 
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