Update on broken knife...

Joined
Feb 4, 1999
Messages
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Wow! I was sure surprised to see the 32 messages that resulted yesterday on my closed thread while I was at the Badger Show! I wasn't surprised to see the whole thing decompose into an argument on who is lying and who isn't, but on Bladeforums this seems to be the norm these days, especially in the case of a few certain people. Anyway, let's see if we can keep this thread unlocked for a while...


So, I did take the broken knife with me to the show, and I stashed it in my backpack (boy am I glad I brought that along!) for an opportune time to show it to John. I perused the entire show first, and it was really hopping when we got there. I waited until around 2:00 when there was a pretty good lull at the tables, and I went over to the Greco table. John was off playing with other makers, as he was for a lot of the show, but Sherry was dutifully manning their table, so I talked to her. I told her exactly what had happened with the knife, and she was somewhat surprised, but seemed disappointed that I didn't have the knife with me. I told her I actually did have it, and she asked right away to see it. She thought the knife looked great in its broken-in state, and we chatted for a while about sheaths while she wrote a repair ticket up. At that point John walked up and we shook hands and talked for a while. He checked out the knife and didn't seem overly surprised, nor concerned! He said it would be pretty easy to fix, but that the knife would have to be reconditioned because of the damage the grinding would do to the finish. They were both bummed out because the finish on the knife and handle had a beautiful patina, but he said there was no way around it! Anyway, his explanation is that the MST II has a surprisingly thin point due to the way the swedge is ground. He showed me another knife, a fighter, with a point that is a full 1/4" all the way to the tip, but from the side it looks like a very thin tip! Anyway, they were both incredibly nice about the whole thing. I am paying a reasonable fee to have the repair done, and the Grecos were both happy with the outcome. They both looked at the knife and said no problem! I had taped the point to the side of the knife in case he wanted to see it, and he took it off and said "Here, you keep this as a reminder to NEVER do anything like that to one of my knives again!" We both had a good laugh and he went off to play with other makers again. I did exactly as I said I would, and purchased a second Greco. This time I ended up with a LIttle Baron, which is a small version of the GReen River Camp Knife. It had black paper micarta handles and a nice sheath, as usual! I was pleased with the entire exchange with the Grecos and they were more than happy to repair the knife for me. In closing, Sherry said their knives are all meant to be used very hard, and as such damage will occur on occasion. She said it was no problem and they would have the knife back to me within a week or two. VERY, VERY nice folks indeed! Sherry was so nice that later in the show she chased me down to give me a card to enter into a contest that only people who bought custom knives could enter. She had forgotten to give me the entry card earlier, so she kept her eyes peeled for me! What great people.


So, as you can see, it worked out for the best, and I didn't have to try anything sketchy to get the knife fixed. I told them what happened, they offered the repair at a good price, and I accepted their offer. This is how mature people do business in the real world, and this is also how people insure that customers won't be there for one knife and then never return for repeat business.


In other news from the show, there was an overwhelming amount of knives there! I ended up buying a little Damascus kit blade for $30, and I got great deals on a lot of materials for finishing some knives. Also found good prices on padded cloth knife cases. There was a ton of everything there for everyone, but the tables were packed too close together. Also, our very own BRian Turner proved to be a prophet among men...he purchased a Dale Reif Folder on Friday night that won BEst of Show on Saturday! He was beaming with fatherly pride, of course...


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Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
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Chiro, I'm glad everything worked out. Greco knives are really nice. Hope you have fun with those two.
 
It's nice to see an honorable outcome to the situation Chiro. Let me just get the facts straight.
There was no problem with the knife. There was no problem with the heat treat. The knifemaker and now even you feel the knife was used in an improper manner and knives shouldn't be used that way.
Can I go so far as to assume that in the future you're going to test knives in a more rational manner.
Sounds like a good show. Wish I could have been there.
 
Tom, I guess the Greco's disagree with you.

Quote: "In closing, Sherry said their knives are all meant to be used very
hard, and as such damage will occur on occasion".
 
Chiro I am not exactly sure on what Greco's take was on the blade breaking. Did he mean that it was to be expected - ie. if you took ten of the MST II and repeated what you did they would all break? How hard is his A2 and does he do a cryo on it?

-Cliff
 
Breach of decorum deleted. Out-of-order response down below deleted in its entirety - JKM]
It was made clear by the Mr.Greco that he abused the knife. No matter how many times you say sometihing stupid and are proven wrong you just keep hanging in there.
Chiro
I should have mentioned in the first post that you handled the situation in a first class manner. You showed perfect example of good knife etiquette.

[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 03-26-2000).]
 
TomW, I am glad we seem to be able to agree on something for once! As far as John's c0mment, cliff, he was comparing two different knives, one with a full thickness point and the other, my MST, with the swedge/tapered point. He said the problem with the swedge on that knife is that it makes the point quite thin, and on a knife that thick it is somewhat misleading. I don't think he went so far as to admit poor design or anything, just that with swedged knives more care needs to be taken. He also didn't think the knife was abused, for what it's worth. He felt that it was employed in a manner it wasn't really built for and left it at that. I'm paying for the repair, at a fair price, and everybody is happy! I probably will rethink the validity of that test for the future! It worked out well.

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http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
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Chiro :

He felt that it was employed in a manner it wasn't really built for and left it at that.

So would it be fair to say that his take was that the damage you saw was the expected behavior of the knife for the stress you applied?

-Cliff
 
Customer happy. Maker happy. Everybody link arms and sing Kumbaya.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Cliff,
I asked John & Sherry about heat treating when I bought my Companion Mk II (A2 steel). They said it was RC 58-59, no cryo.
 
Cobalt, since James felt compelled to edit some of TomW's words and then your entire post, what I wrote here originally has no meaning. I had to come back and edit out my inappropriate comments (actually, I used your own words against you, but since your words are Gone now, it no longer makes any sense).

Seriously now, the personal insults are out of control. I actually think the strong emotions these broken knife threads arouse reflect some deep seated philosophical differences between forum members. And raise interesting questions about heat treatments, blade geometry, knife testing, etc. I am trying to learn something here. Not just play with words or win a fight. So far there are no winners or losers. And depending on your point of view, nobody is right, and nobody is wrong.

I am no longer sure that the 'stump test' is unfair or wrong. But I am sure that Many knives might fail this test. Neither I nor anyone else (including Chiro) knows Exactly what happened to his knife. And I don't think everyone buys 'custom' knives because they expect them to perform better than other knives. That is a perfectly valid criterion. But is not the predominant factor in my knife purchases.

I think the hard core knife 'users' have a some problems with all of the buyers of fancy custom knives and their makers. I agree that knives are knives and should be used as knives, not just fondled and looked at. But what are the parameters of such an ideal knife? Please list All these characteristics and enlighten the rest of us folks who have sad and ignorant contrary ideas .

Paracelsus, very amused knife collector, user, and admirer of pretty things.

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 03-26-2000).]
 
Summerland, thanks for the info. Chiro how old was the blade you had? You could be seeing the result of the transformation of retained Ausenite resulting in the build up of internal stresses because of the lack of a full cryo treatment.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, that knife is around a year old. I do know that the difference in quality between the MST II I am having repaired and the Little Baron I picked up are huge. The LB has none of the grind lines on the spine and the scales fit a little better. It's a really neat little knife!

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To Chairman JKM and Paralcelsus. I apologise for my outburst. I will control myself in the future. Well, got to go hack through some plywood with my bowie knife, and pry some of the boards apart.
 
In a similar vein, one of the TKCL people at the dinner after the show had a big CPM440V (I think) blade from Darrel Ralph that Ralph sent to him because his custom order was being delayed. It had a duct tape handle and this fella was given carte blanche to test it. He said the edge is very good at breaking chunks off cinder blocks! It was awesome!
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My Knife & Sheath Pages:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
Sheath Makers Referral Directory
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
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Chiro, you said in your original thread "and despite an obvious defect in the heat treat or, more likely, a defect in the steel, "

So, why would you "pay" to have a knife re-ground if you are so sure it was bad steel or heat treat? It would seem, that you are simply going to have the same piece of bad steel back. Just curious.

Richard
 
Richard brings up a good point here.I have just been browsing the March 1999 issue of Tactical Knives magazine an article called"Bulldog Tough"by John Larsen about John Greco's knives.In this article a Companion model and a MST were put through some torture testing.In a photo the companion is shown embedded in the end of a log and the author says he yanked the blade back and forth with no damage to the knife.He also says he inserted the 2 knives halfway into the roof of a car and jerked the knives back and forth with no damage.In the authors words:"while I am sure you could break them,it is going to be a deliberate and very hard task to perform."He also mentions how A2 steel is known for being tough and shock resistant as well as having a good edge retention.He closes the article :"Like Greco said,if you only have one chance to make it out of a situation,then you need a knife that absolutely will not fail when the chips are down."
I don't know if this is what Richard was getting at but I believe you should have gotten a new blade and the old one should have been used for research.
troy
 
Some very good points. If what you say is true about the test you did, then you should have accepted nothing less than replacement. Since your test was obviously not destructive in any way. Now you will end up with the same blade and maybe the same problem.
 
I think Richard has a very good point. And it's nice to see folks agreeing with each other. If the knife broke in a test that was "obviously not destructive in any way", then there really must be a problem with the heat treat in that blade or some other defect in the material. Regrinding the blade may not fix the problem. I am also surprised that Mr. Greco did not replace the knife entirely. Maybe he knows more about how it broke than we do.

Paracelsus, noticing that it is interesting what can happen when things break in tests that are not destructive in any way
 
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