Updated: Complications with forge welding. I want to forge a tomahawk. A couple questions.

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Dr Heelhook

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Jul 24, 2007
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I'm looking to get into forging. I've only been making knives through stock removal before and I intend to keep doing that, but I do want to try my hand at forging as well. I figured making a tomahawk might be a good place to start, especially to practice hammering in bevels on a blade.

What would be a fairly cheap, but decent quality high carbon steel to begin with, that's also quite forgiving when it comes to heat treatment?

Also, I was thinking about maybe trying some differential heat treatment, like only hardening the edge and leaving the rest of the axe head unhardened. Would that be a good idea? Is it commonly done whem making tomahawks?

I'd appreciate any other good pointers and tips for making tomahawks that you could think of as well, thanks.

/Oskar
 
Rail road spikes are good for practicing making a small tomahawk, they are basically mild steel but you can make a couple for throwing and practice drifting the hole for your eye and drawing material out. What is commonly done for tomahawks or axes is to forge weld in a high carbon bit, so you could take a rail road spike start to draw your blade out the split it in the middle to insert a piece of high carbon steel that you can then forge wells to give you a good hardenable cutting edge. Other good steels here in the States that are good for axes are 1045, 4140, 5160, 8670. The first two you can find in larger square stock to forge a solid piece but they are considered medium carbon steels so you won’t get the same hardness you would out of 5160 or 8670 but with either of those high carbon steels you would need to forge weld. I know there is 8670 coming out of Germany that you may be able to get in Sweden and it’s super tough around 59-60 hrc.
 
Joshua Fisher said:
Rail road spikes are good for practicing making a small tomahawk, they are basically mild steel but you can make a couple for throwing and practice drifting the hole for your eye and drawing material out. What is commonly done for tomahawks or axes is to forge weld in a high carbon bit, so you could take a rail road spike start to draw your blade out the split it in the middle to insert a piece of high carbon steel that you can then forge wells to give you a good hardenable cutting edge. Other good steels here in the States that are good for axes are 1045, 4140, 5160, 8670. The first two you can find in larger square stock to forge a solid piece but they are considered medium carbon steels so you won’t get the same hardness you would out of 5160 or 8670 but with either of those high carbon steels you would need to forge weld. I know there is 8670 coming out of Germany that you may be able to get in Sweden and it’s super tough around 59-60 hrc.
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Thanks, great advice. I have been considering the split in the middle forge welding method. I will look into finding some rail road spikes too.
 
For a hawk you don't really need high carbon content.

I use RR spikes to make hawks with people visiting the forge or at demos. Drill a row 0f 3/6" holes about 3/4" long to drift the eye through. Forge the head out into the face and taper the other end into the spike. You really need a drift to make a hawk, though. Ebay has good deals on drifts. If you forge your own drift use plain round 3/4" rod from Lowes or HD.

For a wrap hawk, use low carbon steel for the wrap and a piece of 1075/1084/1095/ for the bit. You can also use a single piece of any good carbon steel. I find 1075 and 5160 both do well. Any similar steels like 8670, Cru-Forge, etc. will do fine.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
For a hawk you don't really need high carbon content.

I use RR spikes to make hawks with people visiting the forge or at demos. Drill a row 0f 3/6" holes about 3/4" long to drift the eye through. Forge the head out into the face and taper the other end into the spike. You really need a drift to make a hawk, though. Ebay has good deals on drifts. If you forge your own drift use plain round 3/4" rod from Lowes or HD.

For a wrap hawk, use low carbon steel for the wrap and a piece of 1075/1084/1095/ for the bit. You can also use a single piece of any good carbon steel. I find 1075 and 5160 both do well. Any similar steels like 8670, Cru-Forge, etc. will do fine.
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Thanks. If they don’t have a drift at the place I’m at, I was thinking about making one by lathing a round steel rod into a taper.
 
The drift has to have a teardrop cross section. You can lathe it to a taper and then forge or grind it into the proper profile.

I think this image says it all as far as how to do it. The image is a piece of 3/4" bar, but a RR spike works even better, IMHO. If you don't have spikes available, email me.
tomahawk-eye.jpg
 
So I gave it a shot. I tried to forge weld a piece of high carbon steel into a 3/4 inch bar:

LbNIhwP.jpg




I tried several times, treating the surfaces with flux, but I was still unable to get the steels to bond. What might I be doing wrong?:

LNLfP1V.jpg




After a while I gave up, but I decided to try to practise driving the eye through the head. Didn't go all too well neither:

3tRIt64.jpg


On this, I assume I didn't center the chisel well enough and that I didn't make the slit long enough. Also I think I might have been going too fast. Any other pointers here?


Apart from all this, it felt pretty good. For my next tomahawk project, I think I'll make it from a single piece of steel.
 
Looking at the photo I would guess that you are not getting the metal up to welding temperature. Probably a temperature issue with the eye drift. too. Make sure the slot is perfectly centered.
 
Deleted, trying to think before coffee.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Looking at the photo I would guess that you are not getting the metal up to welding temperature. Probably a temperature issue with the eye drift. too. Make sure the slot is perfectly centered.
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Makes sense. I’m working with a small propane forge, so it takes a while to heat up. I’ll have to be a bit more patient.
 
Show us some photos of your forge and the burner. It may not be able to do forge welding.
 
Dr Heelhook said:
Any other pointers here?
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Without watching what you did, it's hard to make suggestions on what to change, but my first question would be: Did you do any forging on the sides while drifting the hole or did you just let the drift do the work?
When drifting a hole to size, one has to do some forging on the sides/cheeks while the drift is in the hole to keep the drift in the center of the stock. The only way to avoid this is to make sure your slot is exactly centered and that you drive it exactly perpendicular to the stock. Both of which are almost impossible to do as accurately as needed to avoid having to make any modifications (read: forging on the cheeks) while drifting the hole the first 5-10 times you try this.
If you're not familiar with Mark Aspery or Brian Brazeal, I'd suggest checking out their videos on Youtube.
 
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That NC forge should easily do forge welding. You may have to crank it up a bit more. You also have to let it heat long enough for the center to be at welding heat ... not just the outside.
The other issues with making a weld are cleanliness and having a good fit before the weld. It is a good idea to clamp the pieces together in a vise and use a TIG or wire welder to weld the pieces together along the sides before the weld. That will all get ground away after the weld is made and the cheeks drawn out.

Flux isn't faerie dust. It doesn't magically weld steel. Use only the amount needed and avoid getting too much in the actual weld.

The key ingredients in a good weld besides the above are fully heating the metal through and through and gently setting the weld first with a couple of heats before any hard forging. Too much hammer pressure in the beginning can result in a weld that won't set.
 
I’m a newbie at forge welding, so I will comment on things I realized in my first few projects. The cleaner the surfaces are, and the better they mate up prior to heating, the easier it will be to get them to stick.

I found success with soaking the billet in diesel, then heating to forge welding temp. I flux after the billet comes to temp, and when no shadows are present in the steel, and the flux dances like water in oil on a hot frying pan, it welds relatively easily. You don’t need to hit it hard. Just a moderate tap will set the weld.
 
Easiest way is to start with a ball peen hammer. The forge looks WAY too close to your wall and your anvil looks quite cramped with space around it. It took me a lot of work but i finally was able to train my hammers not to jump on my anvil. I would come into the shop and find them on the anvil like yours. I would scold them and put them on the stump, took time but don't give in. ;)
 
When slitting, or punching, make small marks to start. Make sure that it is completely centered. As you start punching, don't rush, take a couple whacks, take the punch out, turn the work 180°. This will help keep your hole centered.
 
I might set that propane tank out to the side rather than under the forge where hot metal could easy drop and burn the rubber hose, causing an "interesting" fire. As JT said, that forge is waaay too close to the wall - by the time the forge gets to welding temps, that wall is going to be smoking.
 
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