Recommendation? Upgrade from 3000 grit diamond plates?

[bemymonkey]

Hi everyone, I'm looking to take my sharpening game to the next level and think a good set of water stones might be the way to go. Am I on the right path or should I be looking at my technique instead?

Currently I sharpen freehand on diamond plates up to 3000 grit and strop with silicon carbide (grey) and then chrome oxide (green). This gives me decent sharpness for food prep, carving, bushcraft and so on. I can shave arm hair no problem, leg hair too, but facial hair is an issue. My edges also mostly won't split hair except for about 10% of the time. Cheap flimsy newsprint can be sliced very cleanly in all directions with very little pressure.

So now what I'm looking for is the next level in sharpness. I want hair to jump off skin at the mere sight of the awesomely polished apex. What I think I need is a set of higher grit water stones that will allow me to refine the apex even further than what I'm currently achieving off a 3000 grit diamond plate before I hit the strop. I'm not sharpening any super high-end steels really. Lots of D2 and N690, some high-carbon (Mora, 1075, 1095), some 8Cr13MoV/9Crxxxxx etc., 12C27, 14C28N. The highest end would be Elmax and 3V right now.

After a quick perusal of the almighty internet, I'm leaning towards a set of Naniwa Super Stones. A 1000/5000/10000 grit set would be surprisingly cheap at 130€, and they seem well regarded - slow wearing and good finish with a subdued scratch pattern. Apparently they're nearly identical to the Naniwa Specialty Stones but somehow slightly different...?

I wouldn't be replacing my diamond plates with the water stones but rather using the diamonds for anything that requires removal of more material and then refining with the water stones.

Is this a good way to go? Or should I already be getting hair splitting sharpness off a 3000 grit diamond plate?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Have you tried lapping film?

 

[bemymonkey]

Not yet. Is that something you would recommend instead of water stones? Looks like a great alternative to stones tbh. I could imagine putting them on a strop for even easier convexing too. I will definitely give these a shot as well, thanks for the suggestion!

Anyone else have experience with these films?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

If you search for the phrase "scary sharp" you'll find a lot of results regarding lapping film. For limited volume these provide very good results at a low entry price. At high volume they would cost more than stones; if the price starts adding up you can still get water stones. An advantage of films is that you don't need to flatten or condition them; a disadvantage is that they are easily cut so you either need a very good hand or a jig if you want to use edge-leading strokes. (Fine water stone can be rather fragile themselves by the way.)

 

[leozinho]

Have you tried lapping film?

Where do you buy your lapping film?

 

[Jason B.]

You are lusting for sharpness...

Your knives are plenty sharp and I would bet sharper than most people you know have seen. Chasing that high of sharpness is fun but no where close to practical or efficient in cutting. You are also thinking of sharpness as a grit and that's just not how it relates. I can get a knife to split hair with a Fine DMT (600 mesh) followed by some stropping on a strop loaded with 1 micron diamond compound. The difference? I do more work with the 600 than the 1 micron strop because its not about how fine the edge is its about how clean the apex is. FYI, green compound is 0.5 micron.

P.S. Most of the sharpness you are looking for i.e. shaving facial hair is an issue with blade geometry not the sharpening. I usually finish straight razors with an 8000 grit waterstone, suitable for a straight razor but still too rough for a knife.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

L leozinho I got mine from PSIDragon.com but now more places sell it, like taytools.com. I haven't checked current prices but I think your best value will depend on how much you want, how many different grades you want, and of course shipping cost. You can get PSA-backed sheets if you want to permanently mount them but I find it more convenient to lay a strip of the plain-backed film on my fine sharpening stone.

FYI, green compound is 0.5 micron.

P.S. Most of the sharpness you are looking for i.e. shaving facial hair is an issue with blade geometry not the sharpening. I usually finish straight razors with an 8000 grit waterstone, suitable for a straight razor but still too rough for a knife.

Some green compound is 0.5 micron. Dovo green is 6µm I believe, and Veritas green compound is much coarser.

By "still too rough for a knife" do you mean for the purpose of shaving facial hair?

 

[Jason B.]

L leozinho I got mine from PSIDragon.com but now more places sell it, like taytools.com. I haven't checked current prices but I think your best value will depend on how much you want, how many different grades you want, and of course shipping cost. You can get PSA-backed sheets if you want to permanently mount them but I find it more convenient to lay a strip of the plain-backed film on my fine sharpening stone.



Some green compound is 0.5 micron. Dovo green is 6µm I believe, and Veritas green compound is much coarser.

By "still too rough for a knife" do you mean for the purpose of shaving facial hair?

"Still too rough for a knife" means that a knife is not a straight razor and its thickness AKA blade geometry is not at all designed for the tough task of a facial shave.

Straight razors need to be very thin and smooth at the edge not toothy like a knife. A straight razor that is "toothy" will be rough on the face causing burn and irritation. An 8000 grit edge on a straight razor is worlds different than an 8000 grit edge on a knife and it is ALL because of geometry.

 

[bemymonkey]

You are lusting for sharpness...

Your knives are plenty sharp and I would bet sharper than most people you know have seen.

Yeap, I'm sure you're right and I'll never notice the difference when using the knives for the stuff I actually need them for. This is just for fun - it hurts my soul that my edges won't reliably split hair

Chasing that high of sharpness is fun but no where close to practical or efficient in cutting.

Agreed. I don't expect a blade sharpened to this degree to hold that edge for any significant amount of cutting time. Hell, I'm expecting most of the less stainless steels will simply lose that edge due to corrosion after a few days or weeks.

You are also thinking of sharpness as a grit and that's just not how it relates. I can get a knife to split hair with a Fine DMT (600 mesh) followed by some stropping on a strop loaded with 1 micron diamond compound. The difference? I do more work with the 600 than the 1 micron strop because its not about how fine the edge is its about how clean the apex is. FYI, green compound is 0.5 micron.

That part sounds important. So you're saying it's unlikely higher grit stones will help me achieve my goal and I should be concentrating on technique? As far as I can tell the 600 mesh DMT (25 micron) is pretty coarse, i.e. somewhere around a 500 grit waterstone according to the charts I've found... is this correct?

According to the vendor the green compound I use is somewhere around 0.3 micron - I'm guessing 0.3 vs. 0.5 microns isn't much of a difference for stropping.

P.S. Most of the sharpness you are looking for i.e. shaving facial hair is an issue with blade geometry not the sharpening. I usually finish straight razors with an 8000 grit waterstone, suitable for a straight razor but still too rough for a knife.

That's the problem - even the shallowest geometries I have (something like an Opinel No. 10 carbon with its 15° inclusive at the very apex) won't split hair or shave comfortably. I've never actually handled a straight razor, but I thought they were mostly somewhere around 15-20° inclusive mark?


I would love to hear more if you'd like to elaborate!

 

[Jason B.]

Yeap, I'm sure you're right and I'll never notice the difference when using the knives for the stuff I actually need them for. This is just for fun - it hurts my soul that my edges won't reliably split hair




Agreed. I don't expect a blade sharpened to this degree to hold that edge for any significant amount of cutting time. Hell, I'm expecting most of the less stainless steels will simply lose that edge due to corrosion after a few days or weeks.




That part sounds important. So you're saying it's unlikely higher grit stones will help me achieve my goal and I should be concentrating on technique? As far as I can tell the 600 mesh DMT (25 micron) is pretty coarse, i.e. somewhere around a 500 grit waterstone according to the charts I've found... is this correct?

Bingo! Technique is EVERYTHING and if your edge is not sharp then it is technique. The steel will always sharpen and the stone will always grind and the sharpener will always make mistakes. We are not machines so we must work off of repetition, it takes mulitple strokes on the stone to make a "straight" bevel by hand. I like to say, "give in to the inconsistencies" meaning try and hold a consistent angle but don't worry so much about it that you forget about technique. You will be surprised what you can do with even a single stone once you learn to vary pressure through the process and finishing with a feather touch. And this is where the cleanliness of the Apex comes into play, by using a light touch you will reduce the depth of cut by the abrasive which will reduce deformation, aka burr formation. It's the difference between lightly brushing your hand over topsoil VS dragging a disk plow through a field. So, by reducing pressure you are cleaning the apex and prepping it for final polishing.

Imagine, you have just sharpened your edge but you left a visible burr. Now you start stropping with an Ultra Fine compound, you are getting nowhere fast and you increase pressure, but now the edge has been rounded from excessive pressure. A break of technique which created an error in the sharpening process and the sharpness suffered. Now Imagine that same edge coming off the stone with a invisible and nearly undetectable burr. You start stropping and within a handful of strokes the edge comes alive because you have removed any remaining burr/debris from the edge Apex without rounding it. BAM! hair splitting sharpness.

Just to put it in perspective, when I sharpen a customers blade or even my own I rely on technique to give me the result I expect for each stone. By learning to maximize the potential of each stone I know when I have done as much as I can with that stone and I can move on. BUT!!! There is a huge difference in concentration between general sharpening and trying to get a blade to split hairs. It's something that takes hours not minutes... well, most of the time.

Yes, the DMT Fine is still rather coarse but because not all grit is the same I would say its more like a 800 grit waterstone and performs like a 1000 grit waterstone. Sharpness is harder to explain because it is a perception built on experience and is only as good as your best example. Diamond plates impart a much sharper edge at lower grits and with variations in pressure you can come off a diamond plate with a completely clean edge. In my experience, because of this fact it has always been much easier for me to get a hair splitting edge off a diamond plate as the edge apex is much more defined. This allows much easier and more effective results once you start to polish this edge. The difference waterstones make come more for tools like Straight Razors, Woodworking tools, Higher quality Kitchen knives or hair shears. These tools tend to require finer edges applied by softer abrasives and this is where the waterstone shines. Can great result be had? Yes, and much more than a diamond stone can offer BUT the learning curve is steep and the product selection will make your head spin. It's also not good to switch tools expecting better results, we become accustom to our most used tools and adding variables tends to cause problems.

According to the vendor the green compound I use is somewhere around 0.3 micron - I'm guessing 0.3 vs. 0.5 microns isn't much of a difference for stropping.

0.5 is just the average for "Green compound" and the truth is it can vary a LOT more than that. That is why purity is more important than specific micron size.




That's the problem - even the shallowest geometries I have (something like an Opinel No. 10 carbon with its 15° inclusive at the very apex) won't split hair or shave comfortably. I've never actually handled a straight razor, but I thought they were mostly somewhere around 15-20° inclusive mark?

Buy an old straight razor from eBay, buy a Naniwa 1000, 3000, 5000, 8000 and a good hanging strop such as an Illinois. Learn to work up the edge and strop it to shave ready status. Once you do this and shave with this edge you will never want to try it with a knife again. Not because its impossible but because you will quickly realize you will never get a knife this sharp or thin for a comfortable shave.

Not sure the angle, you just lay them flat.

I would love to hear more if you'd like to elaborate!

Sorry for the lengthy answer, lot of little details and we have only scratched the surface.

Here is my EDC blade when I first purchased it. Fine DMT followed by 1 micron Diamond (I would recommend some Diamond abrasive for your strop) Are these my results every time? No, but I just happen to come off the fine stone perfectly and the stopping did its job nicely. I was "seeing what I could do" that day, seeing if I still had it

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4lWh0yjqnE/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

[bemymonkey]

Awesome, thank you so much! I guess I'll keep working on my technique, and if I buy a set of nice waterstones I know not to expect miracles unless I've upped my game accordingly.