Upgrade Stones for High Carbide Steels

[Peebles]

This sort of question comes up frequently and I scoured the archives for hours. I even feel like I learned something, but not enough to resolve my question. I have a plan, but getting some advice from others could help steer me straight.

I currently have old model Naniwa Super Stones in 220/1k/5k and they work nicely for my kitchen knives in SK-5 and the other random steels I sharpen for friends. I'm new to super steels though and I have a Ritter Grip in M390 on the way. I've read that Naniwa products can be frustrating on highly wear resistant steels.

What is the best way to enhance my setup to deal with this and other popular high vanadium steels? Right now I am planning to buy a DMT Extra Fine stone (D8E), but I also considered the Spyderco Fine stone. Which should I choose? Beyond that I will supplement with the DMT 6,3,1 μm pastes.

Is one hard stone + paste enough with what I have, or do I need a coarse diamond/ceramic as well?

 

[JD Spydo]

I have a few Spyderco blades made with high vanadium steels. My Spyderco 302 Benchstones have done me well with those types of blade steel.

I also have some really nice diamond benchstones made by Norton, 3M, DMT and Eze-Lap. I've actually had decent results with all of them. But when it comes to ceramic stones I don't know of anything that beats Spyderco.

 

[jc57]

If you want to stick with water stones, I find that my Shapton Pro ceramic water stones do a fine job with Elmax steel. I don't have experience with M390.

 

[JD Spydo]

If you want to stick with water stones, I find that my Shapton Pro ceramic water stones do a fine job with Elmax steel. I don't have experience with M390.

I've used nothing but Spyderco ceramic stones on my Spyderco model C-36 Military which has an M390 blade and I've had excellent results thus far. That M390 blade steel really responds nicely to Spyderco's "Ultra-Fine" stones. It takes a really nice double-bevel apex for a super sharp finished PE edge.

Now if you get a high performance blade steel like M390 really dinged up or chipped ( very doubtful) then I would do my first stage reprofiling with a diamond benchstone of some type.

 

[Jason B.]

With high Vanadium steels it's best to use diamond hones. I would recommend the DMT Coarse and Fine with a balsa strop coated in 1 micron diamond paste.

A note on the Shaptons, the Pro stones can handle SOME higher alloy steels but they were developed to work with lower alloy steels. The Glass stones were developed to work with higher alloy steels but can still have issues sharpening high alloy steels with over 4% Vanadium. It's why diamond is preferred for these steels.

 

[Steel_Drake]

What is the best way to enhance my setup to deal with this and other popular high vanadium steels?

In general, it is still somewhat of an ongoing debate as to whether you can use waterstones on high vanadium content steels (see this thread if you are interested in reading about it).

However, since you have Naniwa SuperStones (which are just about the last waterstones I would want to try and use on high vanadium content steels), and you don't have a strong preference for waterstones over diamond plates, in your case I would probably recommend diamond plates and I would recommend at least one DMT plate coarser than an EF. I would probably grab a DMT C to have a fast starting stone, and then a DMT EF and EEF (if you want the ability to go to a ~4000 grit equivalent finish).

 

[Peebles]

I saw that other thread and some of it was beyond me. I had seriously considered the Sigma Power Select II stones until seeing the pictures in that thread, but now I am convinced of the superiority of diamond for the high wear steels.

Now I'm left choosing between DMT and Atoma. Are the Atoma stones worth the premium over the DMT stones? How often will I use a coarse stone? I almost never touch my 220 unless it's for someone else's knives, but their usage seems standard around here.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I have read good things about Shapton Glass as well, but it's not easily available here.

 

[jc57]

Atoma plates are great for flattening water stones. I only have the 140 and I don't have anything in bad enough shape to need a 140 diamond plate, so I have never used it on a knife.

The Shapton_USA web site (http://www.shapton.com/dealers) shows three dealers in Canada, and there are US companies that sell sharpening supplies that will ship to Canada. Just in case you wanted to get some Shaptons.

 

[Jason B.]

I would pick Atoma for lapping stones and DMT for Sharpening Knives.

 

[Steel_Drake]

I saw that other thread and some of it was beyond me. I had seriously considered the Sigma Power Select II stones until seeing the pictures in that thread, but now I am convinced of the superiority of diamond for the high wear steels.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that diamond plates are necessarily superior to SPS-IIs for dealing with steels up to and including Maxamet (though most on this forum would), but I personally strongly prefer waterstones to diamond plates, and personally use waterstones in a way that minimizes their drawbacks used on high vanadium content steels. In your shoes I would say diamonds are probably the much more practical choice.

Now I'm left choosing between DMT and Atoma. Are the Atoma stones worth the premium over the DMT stones? How often will I use a coarse stone? I almost never touch my 220 unless it's for someone else's knives, but their usage seems standard around here.

Echoing what others have said, I really like my Atoma 140 for flattening waterstones and for re-profiling edge bevels. I don't think Atomas are worth the premium over DMT Diasharps at higher grits, though I will admit I personally prefer the Atoma 400 and 1200 to the DMT C and F, respectively.

I have read good things about Shapton Glass as well, but it's not easily available here.

I don't think the Shapton Glass stones would be a good choice for highly wear resistant steels, personally. SPS-IIs would be much faster on highly wear resistant steels as they are composed of silicon carbide rather than aluminum oxide, have a much higher abrasive density due to having almost no binder in their formulation, and expose fresh abrasive rapidly even used with low force due to having a very weak bond strength. In any case, diamond plates would probably be a better option for you anyway at this point.

 

[Nfd538]

I use CKTG 140 diamond stone for lapping and Shapton glass for sharpening. Here's the Shapton on Ritter M390 like OP asked.

 

[eKretz]

I would pick Atoma for lapping stones and DMT for Sharpening Knives.

Agree for sure. They are both great for their niche, but I personally hate the feel of the Atoma plates when sharpening a knife. They are awesome for lapping hones though.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Honestly man, it's just that the super stones aren't the best cutting stones, they are made to polish Japanese single bevel stuff,

Even a cheap Norton India stone will cut better and leave a better edge for a folder which need some bite on the edge for utility,

After the India stone you can clean up the bevel on the 1k super but I'd stay fair away from the 5k super, too much Polish

For strops just do the 1 micron don't waste your time and money with the 6 to 3 to , 1

Just do 1 micron

400 grit India, 1k super, 1micron strop

Or

Dmt coarse, 1k super, and strop

The diamond scratch deeper and you don't get as good of a finish.

 

[maximus83]

With high Vanadium steels it's best to use diamond hones. I would recommend the DMT Coarse and Fine with a balsa strop coated in 1 micron diamond paste.

Resurrecting an old thread for the comment about the high VC steel strategy.

Would it make sense to use an even more coarse diamond paste--something in the 10 to 15 micron range--to remove a little metal while still preserving the coarseness of a utility edge on folders and other EDU knives?

I have compounds in 1, 3, and 10 micron so I can use any, but would prefer to simplify to a single compound for most utility sharpening, especially if I'm going to go straight from say a coarse DMT or fine Crystolon, straight to a strop. Because the strop is not only my finishing step but also my maintenance step, I'm just wondering if the 10 micron is the preferred general purpose stropping compound.

 

[microtech85]

I would try sharpening with your current stones first and see how it works for you. You may not need anything else. Then if you want, dmt stones plus spyderco ceramics make for a nice all around sharpening kit.

 

[microtech85]

I'm on my phone; i didn't realize this thread was from last year. Maximus, I would suggest you experiment with different techniques. I think you probably have a solid amount of data accumulated from all these good threads. Sharpening mostly comes down to skill and preferences. You just have to learn what you like now by experience. Pretty much all quality sharpening tools will be good. Now just put the theories to practice! Good luck!

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Resurrecting an old thread for the comment about the high VC steel strategy.

Would it make sense to use an even more coarse diamond paste--something in the 10 to 15 micron range--to remove a little metal while still preserving the coarseness of a utility edge on folders and other EDU knives?

I have compounds in 1, 3, and 10 micron so I can use any, but would prefer to simplify to a single compound for most utility sharpening, especially if I'm going to go straight from say a coarse DMT or fine Crystolon, straight to a strop. Because the strop is not only my finishing step but also my maintenance step, I'm just wondering if the 10 micron is the preferred general purpose stropping compound.

If looking to maintain a relatively toothy 10µ finish on an edge, or anything coarser, I'd minimize stropping with compound in the first place. Instead, do as much refining on your finishing hone (DMT EF?) as possible; then, if doing any stropping at all, either do it without compound, or choose a less-aggressive compound better suited to only stripping away burrs, and not polishing so much. In other words, a compound that's enough to remove just the weakened remnants on the edge, but won't do too much beyond that. Sometimes, even something like green compound, with a minimum of stropping passes, is enough to do that, even on high-VC steels. But, having said that, I'd still focus on doing as much as you can on the hones, and minimizing stropping beyond that.

Coarser compounds will still tend toward refining or polishing the finish, when used on a substrate that's not very hard (leather, wood, etc), because they'll cut less deeply from the softer substrate than their rated grit would imply. Even more so, if the strop is then used for most or all of the followup maintenance. If a coarse compound were used atop a very hard backing, such as a piece of paper atop a stone, it'll cut deeper to create a more toothy finish. But at that point, you'd do just as well to do as much refining on the stone anyway, if you're wanting to preserve the toothy bite it gives to the edge.


David

 

[willc]

Resurrecting an old thread for the comment about the high VC steel strategy.

Would it make sense to use an even more coarse diamond paste--something in the 10 to 15 micron range--to remove a little metal while still preserving the coarseness of a utility edge on folders and other EDU knives?

I have compounds in 1, 3, and 10 micron so I can use any, but would prefer to simplify to a single compound for most utility sharpening, especially if I'm going to go straight from say a coarse DMT or fine Crystolon, straight to a strop. Because the strop is not only my finishing step but also my maintenance step, I'm just wondering if the 10 micron is the preferred general purpose stropping compound.

Just recently I’ve ordered some diamond pastes from gritomatic and they seem to be a good quality for the price.
I got 1 micron and 60 micron, they only listed 1,40, and 60, and I’ve been using the pastes on an old Washita and a 3x8 steel plate.

So far I’ve only tried s110v and s30v but this method is giving nice feedback and a very nice refined edge.

The finest grit I have is .25 micron but I need to find that as I haven’t messed with these lately.

Besides the gritomatic I have the 3 DMT and a couple no name pastes.
Can anyone recommend some good quality pastes in the .5-10 micron range?

 

[Alberta Ed]

I've found that today's high carbide steels work best with a slightly toothy edge -- I usually just hone with a DMT red. They will take a highly polished edge with the ultra-fine (green) DMT, but don't really need it.

 

[maximus83]

I've found that today's high carbide steels work best with a slightly toothy edge -- I usually just hone with a DMT red. They will take a highly polished edge with the ultra-fine (green) DMT, but don't really need it.

This approach seems to work pretty well for some other steels too. I just used Jason's suggested approach on some soft stainless folders, see other thread, basically did coarse stone and strop to finish. That edge is perfect for the way those blades will get used. Though I did go back later and add EEF for refinement, and it did make a small improvement in sharpness, it was totally unnecessary and normally I wouldn't bother with that.

I agree the DMT C or F stones leave a pretty nice finished edge, a lot of times you don't even need an EF grit in the 1K to 1200 range. Previously I was doing that, now I don't even think THAT is necessary in a lot of cases. What I am trying to do now is, minimum number of grits and progressions necessary to get a toothy, durable edge. Seems like something in the range of 300 to 600 grits--candidates includes Norton Crystolon fine, DMT coarse, DMT fine, or other diamonds or SiC in this range--will do the job for a 1-grit sharpening.

On the question I originally posted above about 10 micron vs 1 micron: Jason answered that in a separate conversation, posting here for those interested. The approach he's looking for is create a toothy edge, then polish the tooth (hence the 1 micron compound on the strop). In his sharpening, this approach worked well compared with say using a coarser grit compound on the strop.

This makes sense and because I'm already trying his approach of just using DMT coarse for sharpening, I'm going to try the full approach and just use my CBN 1 micron on the strop as well. Thanks Jason and all. BF rules!