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USA old timer vs USA case knives
- Thread starter Jccrigger
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The biggest advantage I'd give the USA Schrade OT knives is with their steel; specifically the 1095 versions, which have the best combination of razor-edge-taking, edge holding and ease of sharpening I've ever seen. They are a pure joy to sharpen up and use. :thumbup:
Schrade USA was apparently known for going a bit higher in RC hardness across their line. The 1095 blades were often near 60 RC, and I think the stainless blades were fairly hard as well (often 440A on the older ones, and 420HC in more recent years, before they shut down all USA operations).
Having said the above, most of Case's line is very good. Their CV steel blades sharpen up as easily as the Schrades, and take great edges; they're not quite as hard, so edges won't last as long as with the 1095 Schrades, but they're a breeze to touch up and maintain sharp. Their stainless ('Tru-Sharp'; 420HC by another name) is usually pretty good as well, though there's been more variation in edge-taking and/or holding over the decades. I have many Case blades, both old (1940s-70s) and more recent, and I haven't had any major gripes with them. Their huge volume of business sometimes means we'll hear about 'bad' ones more often, but I don't see any QC issues that haven't also been seen in other 'big' brands. Case will likely have the largest pattern selection of any brand, by far, as well as a huge variety of handle material & color choices. There's something new from them almost every year.
For what it's worth, three of my favorite daily-carry knives are a Schrade USA 8OT (1095), a Case 6375 CV stockman and a Case 2137 SS Sod Buster (stainless). That sums up my views on both brands; if I didn't like 'em, I wouldn't put 'em in my pocket. :thumbup:
David
Schrade USA was apparently known for going a bit higher in RC hardness across their line. The 1095 blades were often near 60 RC, and I think the stainless blades were fairly hard as well (often 440A on the older ones, and 420HC in more recent years, before they shut down all USA operations).
Having said the above, most of Case's line is very good. Their CV steel blades sharpen up as easily as the Schrades, and take great edges; they're not quite as hard, so edges won't last as long as with the 1095 Schrades, but they're a breeze to touch up and maintain sharp. Their stainless ('Tru-Sharp'; 420HC by another name) is usually pretty good as well, though there's been more variation in edge-taking and/or holding over the decades. I have many Case blades, both old (1940s-70s) and more recent, and I haven't had any major gripes with them. Their huge volume of business sometimes means we'll hear about 'bad' ones more often, but I don't see any QC issues that haven't also been seen in other 'big' brands. Case will likely have the largest pattern selection of any brand, by far, as well as a huge variety of handle material & color choices. There's something new from them almost every year.
For what it's worth, three of my favorite daily-carry knives are a Schrade USA 8OT (1095), a Case 6375 CV stockman and a Case 2137 SS Sod Buster (stainless). That sums up my views on both brands; if I didn't like 'em, I wouldn't put 'em in my pocket. :thumbup:
David
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What David said. Schrade ran their steel harder, both carbon steel and stainless.
black mamba
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Schrade the better steel, Case the better knife. The steel aspect has already been covered. Old Timers used (for the most part) synthetic covers and Swindon Key construction; Case red bone is legendary, and their through-pin construction holds up better and is more easily remedied if blade wobble presents itself.
Now I verge on being a steel snob, with knives in S90V, S110V, S35VN, M2, 3V, etc. But the truth is, a pocket knife just doesn't need steel at 60 and harder to be very, very effective for the uses it encounters. If the steel is more important to you, get an Old Timer and try it out. I've had a handful of them over the years, and though their 1095 is especially good, I have had more enjoyment and pride of ownership with Case knives.
Now I verge on being a steel snob, with knives in S90V, S110V, S35VN, M2, 3V, etc. But the truth is, a pocket knife just doesn't need steel at 60 and harder to be very, very effective for the uses it encounters. If the steel is more important to you, get an Old Timer and try it out. I've had a handful of them over the years, and though their 1095 is especially good, I have had more enjoyment and pride of ownership with Case knives.
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:thumbup:
Part of the reason I like my 6375 CV and the stainless Sod Buster is because of Case's ultra-thin hollow blade grinds making a big difference in the 'effectiveness' of the knife, versus relying only on steel hardness or wear-resistance. The '75 stockman has the thinnest-ground sheepsfoot I've ever seen (I use the sheepsfoot a lot), and the soddie's blade is also very thinly and beautifully hollow-ground (and it came new with a great factory edge). After some additional fine-tuning, both are awesome slicers for everyday tasks like opening boxes & blister pacs (sheepsfoot) and slicing tomatoes & other fruits & veggies (the soddie is my favorite for this). A thin grind can make up for a lot of other limitations, and edges on thin blades like this will last much longer than most would assume, even in 'soft' or 'lesser' steels. Thin grinds cut so much more efficiently, placing a lot less stress on the edge itself; so they last a while longer when used smartly (no prying or screwdriver tasks). And the great thing is, when they do dull a bit, a thin edge in a 'simple' steel touches up almost effortlessly, often just on a strop with some wisely-matched compound. Unless the edge actually gets damaged in very hard use, there's almost no need for taking it back to a stone. This is the real beauty in staying 'simple' when selecting and using a traditional pocket knife.
David
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I think they are both about equal.... just a little different flavor ice cream (it's still ice cream right?).
The OTs have a great steel, classic look, and good feel. The Case knives, have good steel, but are a bit nicer in materials use.
I'm really a big fan of both.
The OTs have a great steel, classic look, and good feel. The Case knives, have good steel, but are a bit nicer in materials use.
I'm really a big fan of both.
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I like 'em both. OT's are great, I love my 108 junior, and my 125OT takes an absolutely sublime edge. However, when push comes to shove, a Case is usually what ends up in my pocket. I like the slightly softer steel, as it feels less brittle to me (the edges on my Case knives seem to roll in situations where the Old Timers would chip out) and the fact that, if it develops a bit of blade play, I can handle it myself instead of having to deal with the un-adjustable swinden construction used on Schrades. Just my 2 cents, I think they're both well made knives, and I could get by just fine using either one as my day in, day out pocket knife.
Edan
Edan
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That's a great comparison and write-up David. Although not asked about by the OP, Camillus would fit in right between the lines.
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Thanks very much, Ed.
I'll take your word for it. I don't have enough Camillus knives, especially older carbon steel patterns, to form a cohesive opinion on them. The few I do have are in stainless, including a Camillus-made Buck 307 stockman (in 440A). I've liked that one too; in fact, I think that's the first one to really change my opinion of the merits of 440A, which I'd previously (& naively) assumed to be 'mediocre'. Camillus did it right, though it turns out I just hadn't learned how to deal with it properly, at the time. I seem to recall being 're-educated' by an older 440C Buck in the same fashion, and the Case stainless knives as well; seems to be a pattern there...
David
The biggest disadvantage of the OTs is the Swinden key. Not a fan of the Swinden key.
Thanks very much, Ed.
I'll take your word for it. I don't have enough Camillus knives, especially older carbon steel patterns, to form a cohesive opinion on them. The few I do have are in stainless, including a Camillus-made Buck 307 stockman (in 440A). I've liked that one too; in fact, I think that's the first one to really change my opinion of the merits of 440A, which I'd previously (& naively) assumed to be 'mediocre'. Camillus did it right, though it turns out I just hadn't learned how to deal with it properly, at the time. I seem to recall being 're-educated' by an older 440C Buck in the same fashion, and the Case stainless knives as well; seems to be a pattern there...
David
OK, so now I want to know how you "deal with it properly". I have similar thoughts on 440A. I am soundly unimpressed by 440A in Rough Rider but was surprised a while back to hear Camillus used it (Schrade also?).
To return to our regularly scheduled programming, David said it very well on the first response. I will add that I really didn't think much of Case at all until I discovered their CV. Schrades I love. Schrade made a better tool, Case makes better male jewelry. I love both, but I have more tools than jewelry.
To add to that, though.
Schrade has that swinden key construction which really is a huge minus, but you can get 2 or more USA Schrades for the price of a Case (although this is changing). There was just a thread where a member purchased an 8OT for $5. It was ugly as homemade sin but had quite a bit of life left in it. I like to pay about $20-$25 for an 8OT in great shape.
I love my Schrades but since the new Schrade stuff is not even close, as time passes the Case CV might be the way to go.
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"Schrade +" was 440A, except at the end when it was changed to 420HC in an effort to cut costs and salvage the company.
440A was the standard stainless used by Camillus.
I personally own around 150 original USA-made Old Timers, and only 15 Case knives. There's a reason for that.
Original USA-made Old Timers had better steel (most are 1095 carbon steel) and a consistently higher build quality. Unlike Case knives, those Old Timers rarely had wobbly blades or weak springs, and never left the factory with coarse jagged edges.
The primary advantage of Case, better selection of beautiful handle materials. Stag, so many bone varieties, wood, synthetics, exotics... I just wouldn't buy one without inspecting it in person first.
Original USA-made Old Timers had better steel (most are 1095 carbon steel) and a consistently higher build quality. Unlike Case knives, those Old Timers rarely had wobbly blades or weak springs, and never left the factory with coarse jagged edges.
The primary advantage of Case, better selection of beautiful handle materials. Stag, so many bone varieties, wood, synthetics, exotics... I just wouldn't buy one without inspecting it in person first.
Some Old Timer knives were contract made for Schrade by Camillus. I don't notice any difference in quality between the Schrade-made Old Timers and those I suspect of being Camillus-made.
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For me, it mostly came down to figuring out how to deal with things like burring, and the issues that sometimes come up in trying to refine this 'softer' steel with abrasives that are too coarse or too aggressive. This is also the same quandry I found with 420HC, especially at slightly lower hardness, as from Case. I used to find it difficult to get fine edges on either steel; most of that was due to using stones or other hones that weren't well-suited (too coarse), and much of the rest was just a lack of skill on my part (inconsistent angle control, too much pressure).
With both 440A and 420HC, the thing that changed everything for me was when I started using edge-trailing strokes on wet/dry sandpaper. I found it much, much easier to maintain a steady angle (I'd been practicing stropping technique a lot, which well-suits best practices with sandpaper), and using the paper over one of my leather strop blocks clearly demonstrated the benefits of reducing pressure exerted laterally on the edge (because the leather was more forgiving of moderately heavy pressure, without creating heavy burrs). The end result was convexed & polished edges that were much, much sharper and more durable than anything I'd been able to do previously.
With 440C (on my older Buck 112), 'dealing with it properly' came down to using something other than the Arkansas stones I'd attempted to re-bevel it with. That was an epic fail, and I eventually found the same wet/dry paper method to make that one sing as well.
I'd also not even attempted stropping of any kind, in the ~20 years or so that I'd struggled with the issues above. I had no clue how effective it could be, or even how it actually worked to refine an edge. These days, stropping with well-chosen materials and abrasives makes up about 95% of my edge maintenance on steels like these, and that's become almost definitively (for me, anyway) the method by which to 'properly deal with' these steels.
Another thing I've learned, and maybe the biggest epiphany for me, was seeing that a thinner edge grind can contribute to greater useful edge life, because of the much greater ease with which it cuts. That runs completely counter to my previous assumption that 'softer' steels always require thicker edges in order to be 'durable'. The catch is, the thicker geometry that helps maintain the basic shape of the edge isn't a an efficient cutter anyway; it relies entirely on a crisp apex. When that apex isn't crisp anymore, the thick geometry behind it starts feeling like the square edge of a 2x4, and cutting performance drops off a cliff. I had always attempted to 'match' the usually-thick factory edge angles on all my knives, and they always disappointed me in how they cut, even when I'd thought I'd done a decent job putting a crisp apex on them. At the time, I think that justified my impression, more than anything else, of these being 'mediocre'. I incorrectly blamed that on the steel instead of the mediocre factory edge grind.
David
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I think a good analogy is that USA Schrade was like a good basic work truck. Built to git'er done without being too flashy. Case builds these kinds of knives still yet but also offers the more upscale models as well. Gets the job done but looks good doin it. Kind of like a truck with lots of chrome and other fancy stuff, gets er done too
Another thing I notice is that Schrade used carbon steel springs and Case uses stainless. One less thing to rust so that you only need to maintain the blade without giving thought to springs.
Another thing I notice is that Schrade used carbon steel springs and Case uses stainless. One less thing to rust so that you only need to maintain the blade without giving thought to springs.
I suppose that depends on when. I have Case knives with carbon steel springs.