Verdigris - The green slime (Codger ramble)

Codger_64

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Anyone who has spent much time buying and storing knives or guns has had to deal with the green crud that develops when they are stored in a sheath or holster. I find that while it sometimes is my enemy, it usually is my friend.

Verdigris is a green chemical compound (copper acetate) that forms when copper is exposed to acetic acid. Not a problem since you don't have a jug of acetic acid near your knives, and your knives don't have copper, right? Well, most sheath leather is acid tanned and gives off acetic acid fumes. And brass (rivets, snaps, bolsters and liners) is a copper/zinc alloy (70/30).

I recently acquired a new-in-the-box Sears Craftsman special edition knife for my Schrade 165 Woodsman pattern collection. New except that it had been stored with the beautiful custom "revolver flap" sheath since 1976. The brass guard, and brass sheath rivets and snaps were a brilliant green. And the green had migrated to the nickle silver fittings as well. No wonder verdigris was used in artists paints in the old days. Other buyers for this knife, more than by the Craftsman tangstamp, were turned off by the green crud, so I bought it at a very reasonable price.

I bought from a local dealer last fall a LB7 Bear Paw that had been stored in it's sheath also. Both the knife and sheath were a greasy green. I mentioned that verdigris can be your friend, well the dealer sold me this knife for a twenty, tax and all. It still had a sticker on the box with a price of $60, the 2002 retail.

Both knives and their sheaths cleaned up easily, and are once again in mint condition. Most times, verdigris can be simply wiped off with a rag and some hand work with a toothpick (wood won't scratch the brass), or some 0000 steel wool if you must. If the crud is more stubborn, it can be dissolved with alcohol, but as I found back in my days as a Rocky Mountain fur trapper of the 1830's, Hoppe's #9 on a Q-tip works like a champ. I usually follow up with a preservative wax or oil to keep the slime away, and NEVER store my knives in, or even with their sheaths.

Like a patina on carbon steels blades, you can put a patina on brass that acts to shield it from verdigris, depending on whether bright or dull brass appeals to you. But don't pass on a knife just because it makes you see green!

Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
... you can put a patina on brass that acts to shield it from verdigris, depending on whether bright or dull brass appeals to you. Codger

Excellent information there, Codger! I just finished cleaning up some of that green goop off the bolster of an older Finnish fixed blade knife, that I store in its leather sheath. I used Red Bear polish. Then I wiped the inside of the sheath, where it contacts the knife's bolster, with Sno Seal leather protector (bee's wax based), that I've used for years on hiking boots.

But tell me, how do I "put a patina" on the brass, to protect it?
 
Same as with a carbon steel blade. With a mild acid such as a potato, coke, tomato, etc. Or just with the oil from your skin and hair. Notice how old brass door knobs, gun parts, drawer pulls turn a dull golden color? That is the patina. Back during my early years hunting with a muzzleloader, I had a beautiful Pennsylvania rifle with ornate brass furniture. It was a joy to behold when it was all shined armory bright and that is how I kept it during the off season. But come fall hunting and rendevous time, I dulled it down to a near brown with my gun cleaning patches after swabbing the bore. A mild bit of sulphur in the soot (sulphuric acid), or if I was in a hurry, a tissue with some mayonaise (citric acid), or Mustard (vinegar). Or you can just handle the knife a lot but don't polish it.

Codger

P.S.-I'd like to hear some other opinions on how to handle verdigris, polishing brass, and adding patina.
 
I've had good results cleaning with alcohol and a toothbrush.

Foam backed fingernail polishing files have several grits and the finest one polishes brass well (though it gets dirty and becomes unusable for fingernails so get one specially for this).

I've never bothered to put a patina on brass, it has always just darkened naturally for me.

Luis
 
Thanks for the info guys! Well, storing a knife in a sheath (or gun in a leather holster) is a sure way to cause the greenies. Even palcing them together in an enclosed display is not a good idea. BUt... and I think Sheathmaker Paul will testify on this, vegetable tanned leather does not do this. It is harder to find (and I have not seen enough of it to know the properties), but does not react with brass.

Codger

P.S.- LT, Larry, Del, anyone have more to add? I know you all have dealt with this subject before.
 
Thanks for the link Lobo. Now that I have seen the various chemical formulas and the atomic make up and their relationships to one another I understand it perfectly. Basically if you store brass, copper or some other metals in leather long enough they might turn kind of green. Right?

Paul

Edited because I was typing while Codger was posting. I use only Veg tanned leather in my sheaths...BUT they are all lined with Deer skin which is not Veg tanned. I have, however, not had any problems personally nor had any reports of verdigris. The oil tanned leathers are the ones that really promote the growth of the green. This seems to be the leather of choice for factory sheaths.

Paul
 
Mr. Sheathmaker,

Was that just the tiniest bit SARCASTIC...Hmmmmmm?? :o :)

I could've added that verdigris is what makes our Lady Liberty appear green, but I didn't.

I've been using cauliflower to tan and treat my leather...but it doesn't work. Neither the leather or I are the least bit tan.
What am I doing wrong?? Please help!!

Signed,
A newbie to vegetable tanning.

P.S.
It tastes pretty crummy after I've done this. The leather I mean.
P.P.S.
Who the heck is this El Lob...some tennis player??
 
No member here has ever used sarcasm Lobo, so you can rest easy.

The green lady is green, and copper, but she is covered with copper carbonate, not verdigris.

Veggie tanned leather uses oak bark etc. (tannic acid). I never thought to saute' leather bits and cauliflower together, but I have eaten some dishes in foriegn resturants that tasted like what you describe. I did turn green, not tan.

Cods :D
 
Paul,

Isn't deer skin tanned with brains? And, then chewed? I have some moose hide mukluks that were tanned this way.
 
Nice shoes Del. How did you get your wife to do it? Yes, braintan is a whole other ballgame. Time consuming and expensive too. A good brain tanned hide sells for several hundred dollars (whitetail deer). More than that if it is also smoked (for waterproofing). Vegetable tanning is how most early leather was made before chemicals came into vogue.

Lobo, my dad the Navy man always used to say "Better one barnicle on your bow than two on your stern".

I was trusting this site for info (fourth paragraph down), but you are right. Who do we trust, a writer knife knut named "ibdennis" or the U.S. Govermink?
http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/Verdigris.pdf
Codger (aka cods) ;)
 
Not important about right or wrong...just a good exchange of information... :thumbup:
Dennis Ellingsen is a knowledgeable knife guy...and I sorta trust the Government...soooo, Green she is, no matter what, and onward we shall press in our pursuit of knife knowledge.

Bill

P.S.
Did I ever mention that I like folders?? :D
 
How could you possibly take my last post as sarcastic? I was commending you for doing such a complete research job and bringing enlightenment to the fold. I even closed the post with an example of how much I learned. (yeah right!) By the way, do you like folders?.....and when can I schedule a tennis lesson???

Paul

PS" Codger I tried to smoke some Deer Skin once....It is hard to roll and Hell to keep lit.
 
(rimshot on the drums :D ) I cannot believe El Lobo let that one slide! Heck, I put that in there as an open invitation to his witty reparte'! As you know by now, El Lobo and Codger are both full of wit! :D And now it seems sheathmaker has slid right in making it the tres hombres of this forum

Codger
Note: I purposely ommited any reference to the well known three man comedy tag team of Larry, Curly and Moe. :p
 
Codger,

I just want you to know I let that ONE slide only because my formative years were in Kalifornia, in the 60s, and I may have tried smoking deerskin...frankly, I don't remember much from those days. :eek: :o

It is good to see others (even forum newbies :D ) jump into the verbal mudpit with us.

Oh, how quickly they sink to these depths, when sparring with "Uncle Henry's Lost Souls"..... :thumbup:

Bill

P.S.
Pretty "PUNNY" of you and your WIT.
 
My dad used to make bronze sculptures and he could get some interesting patina on them, blueish, brownish or greenish depending on what was used to react with the metal, I remember him using ammonia, I did a google search and found far too much info.

Now it should be clear why socks are often mentioned in this forum, a knife kept in a sock will not get verdigris, and if the sock has been used and not washed it will develop a nice patina.

Luis
 
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