very old blade

duras

duras

Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
30
dear colleagues, I present here a special blade
its origin is unknown 20 years ago was found in a well in a village on the banks of the Mures and many years ago came to me.
The blade was not broken, just a massive rust patina tough and uniform.
I cleaned the blade and left her in acid.
I do not know period and origin, but from what I saw on the internet seems to be the period 1100-1300 and is either Turkish or Mongol

You can see it clearly in layers and driving mode and the area was sinking up to the quench, the blade have 64 cm long, 8 mm on the base and very thin tip
I hope you enjoy













 
Very nice find !! They used to dump weapons in rivers after battles and wars ! Great place to find things.
 
Very nice piece...
I am getting near finishing my forge expansion to do swords up to 42inches... would love to replicate this blade... any chance you would make a detailed drawing (with detailed measurements) for me?
 
I'd think, judging from the steel appearance (looks to be shear steel, nice stuff tho), the fullering and blade length, and tang shape, it's more likely to be an 18th or 19th century infantry hanger. Nice find though.
 
The blade may be from a Russian Infantry Officer's sword Model 1865.

n2s
 
I find it pretty hard to believe that blade was underwater very long. Surely a pattern welded blade, more so even than a mono steel blade, would have quickly rusted to nothing. I'm familiar with some of the Viking era swords found in rivers, etc., and there was very little left of the blades, a few slivers, really. What do you fellas think?
 
It does seem to be in pretty good condition for being exposed to water for that long. Perhaps the well went dry and Perhaps its Russian Infantry Officer's sword Model 1865. As N2Sharp mentioned. I think that pattern may have been made during WWII in Russia/Soviet Union but I don't know it for a fact. 70 years in water or less may make more sense.

Ether way, it's a great find of a yesteryear pattern welded sword and thank you for sharing it with us.
 
David Stifle said:
I find it pretty hard to believe that blade was underwater very long. Surely a pattern welded blade, more so even than a mono steel blade, would have quickly rusted to nothing. I'm familiar with some of the Viking era swords found in rivers, etc., and there was very little left of the blades, a few slivers, really. What do you fellas think?
Click to expand...
It surely doesn't look like it was exposed to water for centuries.
However found in a well doesn't mean it was under water all the time.
We don't know when it was dropped in there and also not how long and often the well actually carried any water.
The fact that they dumped stuff down the hole indicates that it wasn't use as a watersource anymore.
 
Is there a fish on the tang ? in this case, it's a Christian symbol, so it could be a Cossack sword .
 
That blade is in excellent shape. I just don't see it as being exposed to the elements for 20, 30, 40 or 100 years. I have left blades outside for a few years that ended up looking much worse than that. Even if not submerged in water.
 
A number of swords have been recovered in fresh water that remained in pretty good condition over the centuries, some including grips. See, Ewart Oakeshott's books and the Wallace collection for examples.

Oxidation requires oxygen and cold water (especially deep water) along with silt have kept history pretty well. See also, bog finds.

To label this one a specific model and year requires (at the least) providing some pictorial evidence.

I will say though that most military blades by the 19th century show a ricasso (however narrow). True even of the bulk of simple briquet.

Cheers

GC
 
Last edited:
David Stifle said:
I disagree. The water would literally have to have minimal oxygen content to prevent rust. Water like that is uncommon.
Click to expand...
This is a common misconception. I've done a little bit of underwater photography and when our cameras (old style SLR's, not digital) got compromised under water we broke them down in the water and brought them up in a bucket. We kept them submerged until we could get them to our repair guy. Don't get me wrong this was not an easy fix but he always said that keeping them in water minimized any oxidation.
 
aguila327 said:
This is a common misconception. I've done a little bit of underwater photography and when our cameras (old style SLR's, not digital) got compromised under water we broke them down in the water and brought them up in a bucket. We kept them submerged until we could get them to our repair guy. Don't get me wrong this was not an easy fix but he always said that keeping them in water minimized any oxidation.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are right, but I remain unconvinced, mainly because I know steel pretty well and have seen what outside conditions, including water, can do to it. That blade looks like it is in quite good condition to me. But....it's simply an exercise in verbiage at this point.
 
True. Although the OP did describe what he did to the blade since it came into his possesion so very possible. Makes me wonder what the original specs were on that blade. I can only imagine how much material was loss due to oxidation and the acid treatment to stabilize the oxidation.

I pulled some old cannon balls out of some shallow salt water wrecks which retained more of there original mass as compared to those that were left out exposed to the elements.

Either way a very interesting piece. Looks almost like petrified wood up close.
 
There are also the swords found in a river in bulk. Here are the ones that made it to the Royal Armouries. Dug up out of a river, some eighty were found packed in barrels. Presumed to have been captured items from the battle of Castillon (1453)

DordogneCastillon.jpg


The sword found in a lake

IMG_7782_zps6c5244cc.jpg


From Oakeshott's "Records"

ype: XVa
Find-place: Lake of Lucerne
Collection: The Royal Armouries. Ex collection Sir Edward Barry
Blade-length: 32" (81 cms) approximately
Pommel-type: J
Cross-style: 8
Date: c.1350-70
Condition: Poor. There is a lot of deep pitting underneath the patina, but the old grip survives though the metal of the hilt is badly corroded, as is the lower on-third of the blade. An extremely simliar sword, in the same kind of condition though lacking the grip was found in the Thames at London, and is now in the collection of the Society of Antiquaries at Burlington House in London. The form of sword seems to have been fashionable in the 14th century, judging by the number of survivors, all as alike as peas in a pod.
Publication: Laking, Connoisseur, February, 1905. Dufty.

The River Witham sword
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe/d/double-edged_sword.aspx

The River Thames find
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_thames.html

etc

No real opinion as to age except to repeat my thoughts on 19th century military swords.

Cheers

GC
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top