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VG-10 Questions
- Thread starter nozh2002
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nozh2002
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Thanks for your reply Calyth. What is your knife with VG10 blade?
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1. I had impression when I read VG10 discusion here that VG10 made by powder metallurgy and ATS-34 not - at least japansteel compares it from this position. I bet Laminated steel for Fallkniven NL is made by powder metallurgy. So they may use same technology for other blades as well. It seems like it is not, but nobody knows for sure.
2. I read somewhere that it is small local producer from Seki and in other place that it is Hitach. It seems like nobody knows this for sure too.
3. I can compare Hiro LB and Apache III - VG10 on Hiro bends, ATS-34 on Apache III never has such problem with really thin tip as well as blade itself. But I read here about Police tip bending (Police G10 has VG10, right? may be it was old Police with other steel?). So looks like it may be an issue?
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Thanks, Vassili.
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1. I had impression when I read VG10 discusion here that VG10 made by powder metallurgy and ATS-34 not - at least japansteel compares it from this position. I bet Laminated steel for Fallkniven NL is made by powder metallurgy. So they may use same technology for other blades as well. It seems like it is not, but nobody knows for sure.
2. I read somewhere that it is small local producer from Seki and in other place that it is Hitach. It seems like nobody knows this for sure too.
3. I can compare Hiro LB and Apache III - VG10 on Hiro bends, ATS-34 on Apache III never has such problem with really thin tip as well as blade itself. But I read here about Police tip bending (Police G10 has VG10, right? may be it was old Police with other steel?). So looks like it may be an issue?
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Thanks, Vassili.
johnniet
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The powder steels originally had names starting with CPM. For a few years CPM440V was a big deal. The Native was made in CPM440V for a while and so was the Military.
Now they are naming particle steels with "S". S30V is the new steel for the Military.
VG-10 is not a particle steel but it has some advantages over ATS-34. A big one is corrosion resistance. A lot of people also say that VG-10 "cuts better" than other stainless steels. I agree, but I can't tell you exactly why. Supposedly VG-10 was invented to cut vegetation; most of our favorite knife steels come from other industries like aircraft.
VG-10 does take a special heat treat. I don't know more than that, and some details are secret.
Now they are naming particle steels with "S". S30V is the new steel for the Military.
VG-10 is not a particle steel but it has some advantages over ATS-34. A big one is corrosion resistance. A lot of people also say that VG-10 "cuts better" than other stainless steels. I agree, but I can't tell you exactly why. Supposedly VG-10 was invented to cut vegetation; most of our favorite knife steels come from other industries like aircraft.
VG-10 does take a special heat treat. I don't know more than that, and some details are secret.
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This may have been true a few years ago, but I'm fairly sure that ZDP-189 is a powdered metal made by Hitachi. See Sal's comment at http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...=120692&perpage=20&highlight=zdp&pagenumber=2
And one of the Japanese Cowry steels may be, also (though I'm less sure about that).
And those steels have been around for at least four years now. Though they're very rarely used here in the States.
Sal Glesser
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Hi Nozh2002. VG-10 is an ingot steel (not a powdered metal). It is made by Tekefu foundry in Japan. Spyderco has imported and used VG-10 in a short run to test mfg of the steel. processing is about like ATS-34 / 154cm.
Powdered metals are made all over the world. In the US, Crucible is probably the biggest with their CPM steels. Timken Latrobe produces a powdered metal called CV-20 (or 20CV). There are several German made powdered metals. In Japan, Hitachi's ZDP-189 and Cowry (I don't know who makes Cowry) are two I have used. The primary advantage of powdered metals is the ability to put large amounts of certain elements into the steel that would not normally be accepted by the steel. The formation of a powder that is then fused (but not melted) is the key to the very homogenous steels that result. The large amount of carbon and vanadium in the CPM steels make for inceased abrasion reisistance and cutting power not available in ingot steels.
Damasteel is a German made powdered metal that is more trying to look like damascus than put in exteme amounts of certain elements, but the process is the same.
In addition, the processing of these steels is a major part of the resulting performance, especially the heat treating process. A good steel not properly processed can be a poor performer. A "lesser" steel with exceptional processing can perform well.
The bending of tips is first atributed to prying, which is, IMO a disrepectful to treat a quality knife. If the tip comes to a point, it can be broken....period! There is not steel that will stop the tip from bending or breaking. Adding thickness would increase the steels ability to resist breaking or bending, at the sacrafice of the sharp point.
Hope this helps.
sal
Powdered metals are made all over the world. In the US, Crucible is probably the biggest with their CPM steels. Timken Latrobe produces a powdered metal called CV-20 (or 20CV). There are several German made powdered metals. In Japan, Hitachi's ZDP-189 and Cowry (I don't know who makes Cowry) are two I have used. The primary advantage of powdered metals is the ability to put large amounts of certain elements into the steel that would not normally be accepted by the steel. The formation of a powder that is then fused (but not melted) is the key to the very homogenous steels that result. The large amount of carbon and vanadium in the CPM steels make for inceased abrasion reisistance and cutting power not available in ingot steels.
Damasteel is a German made powdered metal that is more trying to look like damascus than put in exteme amounts of certain elements, but the process is the same.
In addition, the processing of these steels is a major part of the resulting performance, especially the heat treating process. A good steel not properly processed can be a poor performer. A "lesser" steel with exceptional processing can perform well.
The bending of tips is first atributed to prying, which is, IMO a disrepectful to treat a quality knife. If the tip comes to a point, it can be broken....period! There is not steel that will stop the tip from bending or breaking. Adding thickness would increase the steels ability to resist breaking or bending, at the sacrafice of the sharp point.
Hope this helps.
sal
Sal Glesser
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Hi Vassili. Now I have a question, not to present argument, just to understand.
Prying with the tip of a knife has in my experience always required a very thick tip to keep from breaking or bending the tip. A very thick tip often limits fine work. We make a variety of sheepfoot models ("Rescue style") so we can offer a thick tip which can be used for prying (using the spine).
What, in your opinion, would be the ideal tip for a quality knife and what are your (or anyone elses) thoughts on this?
sal
Prying with the tip of a knife has in my experience always required a very thick tip to keep from breaking or bending the tip. A very thick tip often limits fine work. We make a variety of sheepfoot models ("Rescue style") so we can offer a thick tip which can be used for prying (using the spine).
What, in your opinion, would be the ideal tip for a quality knife and what are your (or anyone elses) thoughts on this?
sal
spyken
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I wouldn't pry with a folder, unless it had a thicker tip (like striders).
However I don't consider opening tins (like in milk powder/beverages) prying - if a folder tip snapped cos of this, then it's worse than a fork (and my knife costs 50X more than a fork).
My question is: would the above be considered prying by knife manufacturers and therefore an abuse on the knife?
However I don't consider opening tins (like in milk powder/beverages) prying - if a folder tip snapped cos of this, then it's worse than a fork (and my knife costs 50X more than a fork).
My question is: would the above be considered prying by knife manufacturers and therefore an abuse on the knife?
nozh2002
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Let me try to explain what I did with all my respect (sorry, it is out of my usual vocabulary).
I lowered bottom of cradle. In a bottom one of the wooden pin (used to connect bottom with side) was stacked in a hole. I tried to pick it away. Pin is about 1.5" and 1/2" in diameter made from some soft wood (pine). Bottom is soft wood ether. I use Hiro Little Blue - tip bended in about 3mm then I use CRKT Apache III - it did the job. I did a lot of such staff with Victronix before too.
I think it is not a prying.
<
Edited... I removed this part. Vassili.
>
However it is impossible to pry with folding knives - too unsafe. There is not enough guard to prevent hand from sliping to edge. It may folds etc. You may pry, but you'll always limit youself because of that conserns.
On my experience tip geometri should not matter too much - it just should be simmetrical. During the pry forces are parallel to blade, I think steel strength matter more. I like Lauri blade shape - simple, but the edge angle on a tip wider then on blade.
For prying more important handle shape on my opinion. Usually nobody really design handles suitable for prying.
Thanks, Vassili.
I lowered bottom of cradle. In a bottom one of the wooden pin (used to connect bottom with side) was stacked in a hole. I tried to pick it away. Pin is about 1.5" and 1/2" in diameter made from some soft wood (pine). Bottom is soft wood ether. I use Hiro Little Blue - tip bended in about 3mm then I use CRKT Apache III - it did the job. I did a lot of such staff with Victronix before too.
I think it is not a prying.
<
Edited... I removed this part. Vassili.
>
However it is impossible to pry with folding knives - too unsafe. There is not enough guard to prevent hand from sliping to edge. It may folds etc. You may pry, but you'll always limit youself because of that conserns.
On my experience tip geometri should not matter too much - it just should be simmetrical. During the pry forces are parallel to blade, I think steel strength matter more. I like Lauri blade shape - simple, but the edge angle on a tip wider then on blade.
For prying more important handle shape on my opinion. Usually nobody really design handles suitable for prying.
Thanks, Vassili.
Sal Glesser
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- Dec 27, 1998
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Hi Vassili. Thanx for your input. I agree that the tip should not have broken on a soft wooden pin. Hiro usually makes excellent knives. I would guess that the supplier would replace it for you.
I don't think it is a property of the steel (VG-10) to easily break. Perhaps the tip was too thin or the steel heat treated too hard, or both?
sal
I don't think it is a property of the steel (VG-10) to easily break. Perhaps the tip was too thin or the steel heat treated too hard, or both?
sal