VG-10 vs 8Cr13MoV Confusing test

Interesting. Now that I think about it, I don't guess I've compared VG-10 to other "premium" steels like I have most of the other popular ones.
I've never thought VG-10 exhibited great edgeholding, but it's certainly good enough for me. Combined with the way it sharpens up and its corrosion resistance, it's certainly an excellent steel for smaller knives.
I've been using a Cara Cara in 8Cr13MoV at work, but it hasn't seen any real abuse. In normal use...I guess it could be as good as VG-10. Don't see why not.
I know that I've been surprised by how much I liked the 8C...(needs a shorter abbr.). I had low expectations, but it seems fine to me. I want to try that 13C26 after reading a lot of hype(?) about it. If it's anything like this 8etc. then we are starting to see some very nice, usable, and fairly high hardness steels without premium costs.
I think Rc approaching or exceeding 60 and harder carbides(hence the MoV) is the difference between these newer steels and older standby "cheap" steels that performed ok, but suffered from not having a very high attainable hardness.

I wonder if Sal could chime in with a hint at the CATRA results compared to the other steels they use.
 
well i can say that the 13C26 on my rainbow leek seems to be alot easier to sharpen than the 8C.. from my lark
 
I just got my tenacious and was happy with the steel. I got the catbyrd too (on a byrd kick or something) in a combo blade and while it's a nice knife the blade shape, edge profile, and g10 scales are a nice total package to me. If I was in a postion where I might not have my sharpmaker to swipe my knives on I might feel differantly but since I do that weather they need it or not it's a moot point.

I like this knife so much I just ordered me another one in case I wear it out. I used it in the kitchen and it was great for food prep!


A more important question to me is how 8Cr13MoV compares to H1 steel. My lunch knife is a pacific salt.

The knife I use at work is a dodo, nothing compares to it. On the other hand it is pretty much only good for a work knife. Oh well, differant tools for differant jobs!
 
This is exactly what I'm seeing so far with my new Tenacious. I havent had it long but so far its exhibiting excellent edge holding abilities!,, 2 thumbs up to Spyderco on this one!,,,VWB.
 
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8Cr13MoV matching the edge retention of VG10 is BS as far as I am concerned.

That test did not match either my daily experience or my side by side test results.

I sharpened a Byrd Flight in 8Cr13MoV to a 30° inclusive angle using a Sharpmaker to guarranty that the angle was precise. Did the same with a Native III in VG10 and a KaBar Large Dozier in AUS8. I sharpened each on a Spyderco sharpmaker until I could see no light reflected off the edge using a 3X lens. Then I made 20 cuts in 3/8 inch manila rope using 2" of each blade to cut through the rope. I made a jig so that the blades cut only rope and did not contact the wood beneath.

I should add that prior to this I had had the hardness of each blade measured. Each was 59HRC.

After 20 cuts with each blade I examined each with a 3X lens, looking for light reflecting off a damaged edge. The 8Cr13MoV and the AUS8 were approximately the same. Both reflected far more light than the VG10 blade showing that the AUS8 and 8Cr13MoV sustained significantly edge damage than the VG10. Mind you, the "damage" was not visible to the naked eye. But the loss of sharpness was there.

In EDC cutting in the back yard my experience has been the same. 8Cr13MoV and AUS8 are about the same for edge retention. Both retain their sharpness significantly less thant VG10.
 
I cut up a box with my zdp-189 caly jr. The box was for one of those pressboard desks, pretty big, 120 lbs of stuff in it. It couldn't shave hair afterward. This is the same edge used in the hair whittling thread.

a 1095 Mooremaker lost as much sharpness on a slightly smaller cardboard box.
 
hardheart said:
I cut up a box with my zdp-189 caly jr. The box was for one of those pressboard desks, pretty big, 120 lbs of stuff in it. It couldn't shave hair afterward. This is the same edge used in the hair whittling thread.

a 1095 Mooremaker lost as much sharpness on a slightly smaller cardboard box.
Click to expand...

Isn't that "laminated" ZDP-189? What does that mean, anyway?
 
From what I've heard, 8Cr is closer to AUS8 than VG-10. I've only used a Byrd briefly, so I couldn't say for sure.
 
very close

8Cr13MoV - .8 C 13 Cr .4 Mn .15 Mo .2 Ni .02 P .5 Si .01 S .1V
Aus8 - .7-.75 C 13-14.5 Cr .5 Mn .1-.3 Mo .49 Ni .04 P 1 Si .03 S .1-.26 V
 
That thread illustrates why I spend more time here than on the Spyderco forum these days. This is a Cliff free zone. Reading the thread on cutlery"science" only proved to me that Cliff has no concept of what scientific method means or how to present data. The only point he came within spitting distance of was it is possible to negate all the advantages of good steel with poor sharpening.
 
yablanowitz said:
That thread illustrates why I spend more time here than on the Spyderco forum these days. This is a Cliff free zone. Reading the thread on cutlery"science" only proved to me that Cliff has no concept of what scientific method means or how to present data. The only point he came within spitting distance of was it is possible to negate all the advantages of good steel with poor sharpening.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised the Spyderco forum is allowing him to distribute such blatant misinformation.

Not that I expect them to censor posts, I'd just think that with as knowledgeable about steel as Spyderco's employees seem to be, somebody would be around to ask if he shouldn't be showing how the edge retention of an Opinel is superior to a D2 Dozier Canoe at scraping the chrome off car bumpers, or whatever he's doing for testing these days.
 
knarfeng said:
8Cr13MoV matching the edge retention of VG10 is BS as far as I am concerned.

That test did not match either my daily experience or my side by side test results.

I sharpened a Byrd Flight in 8Cr13MoV to a 30° inclusive angle using a Sharpmaker to guarranty that the angle was precise. Did the same with a Native III in VG10 and a KaBar Large Dozier in AUS8. I sharpened each on a Spyderco sharpmaker until I could see no light reflected off the edge using a 3X lens. Then I made 20 cuts in 3/8 inch manila rope using 2" of each blade to cut through the rope. I made a jig so that the blades cut only rope and did not contact the wood beneath.

I should add that prior to this I had had the hardness of each blade measured. Each was 59HRC.

After 20 cuts with each blade I examined each with a 3X lens, looking for light reflecting off a damaged edge. The 8Cr13MoV and the AUS8 were approximately the same. Both reflected far more light than the VG10 blade showing that the AUS8 and 8Cr13MoV sustained significantly edge damage than the VG10. Mind you, the "damage" was not visible to the naked eye. But the loss of sharpness was there.

In EDC cutting in the back yard my experience has been the same. 8Cr13MoV and AUS8 are about the same for edge retention. Both retain their sharpness significantly less thant VG10.
Click to expand...
actually putting the edge under a microscope after cutting tests seems a whole lot more accurate and cientific than cutting into some cardboard and measuring the cut length to form conclusions :thumbup:
 
IMHO the results of this test were misinterpreted. In my professional opinion this test at the best compare use of two knives by the same person, I would like to specify: two particular knives, not two models. Material testing, heat treated steel, in this case is little more complicated. Any process has variation, so one sample cannot represent entire population, unless confidence level close to zero is acceptable for tester. Confidence level can be close to 90% if you increase size of your sample to at least 30 pieces collected over period of time. So to test two steels I would suggest to collect at least 30 samples of each belong to different melts. This will assure variation in chemical composition. Steel samples have to be heat treated per manufacturer specification, but in several batches for the same reason. In addition to this, to improve consistency of testing human interference should be minimized and cutting performed by machine, holding and moving blades every time the same way, with the same pressure, and the same speed. As well as sharpening done on CNC grinder. After testing, averages and standard deviations need to be calculated and compared.
 
hardheart said:
I cut up a box with my zdp-189 caly jr. The box was for one of those pressboard desks, pretty big, 120 lbs of stuff in it. It couldn't shave hair afterward. This is the same edge used in the hair whittling thread.

a 1095 Mooremaker lost as much sharpness on a slightly smaller cardboard box.
Click to expand...

From what I've read, cardboard often has a lot of clay type silicates and stuff in it. Hell on knife blades.

As to the subject, I've been very satisfied with the VG-10 blades I've had. Takes a great edge without a lot of work and very durable.
 
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