VG-10 vs. ATS-34, Q2 to Cliff Stamp

F

Franco G

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I am considering to buy (tomorrow) the Spyderco's Pro Grip, SS handle, VG-10 blade, to be rotated as an EDC with Spyderco's Wegner Jr. in ATS-34. How would you judge VG-10 vs. ATS-34 for the 3" folders?

I know, that the Fallkniven started the F-1 knife with ATS-34 and then moved to VG-10 (claimed better toughness for the latter).

Also, there is Mr. Japansteel, who from time to time claims that ATS-34 were superior to everything else except, maybe, to the particle metallurgy steels.

Any link to possible threads will be appreciated.

Regards,


Franco
 
 
Hi General Franco
I said such a things under limitation of knife blade opinion.
I have already know excellent powder metallurgical steels
in other subjects.High spead steel made by such a way is good.
But not only fine grain but also other other properties is
important on demands of cutlery.High speed steel strengthen
too much about metal steel cutting in my opinion.

japansteel
 
I like VG-10 better than ATS-34. VG-10 takes a screaming-sharp edge more easily than ATS-34; or, to put it another way, I can't get my ATS-34 knives as sharp as my VG-10 knives, despite sharpening the exact same way. VG-10 seems to hold an edge a bit longer than ATS-34, and is more stain resistant. One thing that many people claim (and I used to claim as well) is that VG-10 is tougher than ATS-34. I'm not disputing that claim, I'm just not as sure about it as I used to be. VG-10 doesn't seem to be less tough than ATS-34, but I'm not sure it's significantly tougher, either. I'd need to do more head-to-head testing to make up my mind here.

The ease of putting an incredible edge on VG-10 is for me the main reason I prefer it over ATS-34.

Joe
 
You will often find VG-10 hardened at 59 on the Rockwell scale.For exampel,all Fallkniven VG-10 knives are at 59 HRC. I will rate it as fairly easy to resharpen. I use first a fine diamond hone and then switch to arkansas stones,and the result will for me always be razor sharpness on my VG-10 blade(it´s a Fallkniven F1). I think VG-10 is a little harder to sharpen than 440c and Aus8a for example,but it´s on the other hand easier to sharpen than 440V and CPM154. Also again,it depends on where it´s placed at the Rockwell scale.

I wouldn´t state it as the best stanless steel in the world, because i have not tried them all,but it´s the best stainless steel i have ever used. I have never had any rust stains on the blade,and it takes and keeps a razor edge,and it´s not so hard to resharpen.

Manowar
 
Hi Japansteel,

as a matter of fact I like very much the ATS-34 steel althogh most of Spyderco fans preffer VG-10, CPM-steels, etc.

How would you consider BG-42 which is often claimed to be a sort of improved ATS-34/154CM steel?

By the way, to call somebody a 'General Franco' is not considered to be very polite in Europe. To be precise, Franco is the family name of the Generalissimo Francisco FRANCO (a Spanish dictator), and 'Franco' in 'FRANCO G' is my FIRST name, the 'G' being the first letter of my family name. The first name Franco is very often in Italy, e.g. Franco Nero, etc.

Thanx everybody - very instructive comments.

Franco
 
Franco G :

How would you judge VG-10 vs. ATS-34 for the 3" folders?
Click to expand...

There are difference in the two steels, but they are so similar that differences in geometry would be far more significant to the overall properties of the blade. As long at they are raised to a similar hardness the inherent performance of the steels will be very similar. If you are happy with one you will be with the other. I saw relatively low brittle failure in a VG-10 Deerhunter (thread awhile ago), but I am not convinced that wasn't just a fluke as it isn't a common described problem with VG-10.

ATS-34 got a bad reputation mainly because of Benchmade leaving it very hard on "tactical" knives and applying thick and highly polished edges. This made blades that chipped easily, were difficult to sharpen and cut poorly. This wasn't the fault of the steel but a poor choice of hardening and geometry. People using ATS-34 Sebenzas didn't have simiar problems and it was well regarded by custom makers.

When VG-10 came on in use it was mainly used in blades with much finer edge bevels, and the RC was slightly lower than the Benchmade ATS-34. This made the VG-10 blades easier to sharpen and slightly tougher, and they cut much better. Again this wasn't due simply to the steel but the other aspects that were very different from the ATS-34 blades.

I respect Joe's opinion of ATS-34 and the lower quality edge in regards to sharpness. If he says it I believe he has seen it, and he has used a *lot* more production ATS-34 than I have so I don't doubt that in general production ATS-34 may have edge difficulty problems. However, I have ATS-34 blades (custom, Lynn Griffith) that when sharpened will push cut free standing hair easily, and will pass any sharpness test I have heard of.

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
I saw relatively low brittle failure in a VG-10 Deerhunter (thread awhile ago), but I am not convinced that wasn't just a fluke as it isn't a common described problem with VG-10.
Click to expand...

I've been seeing some of this firsthand, which is why I backed off from what seems to be the majority view (VG-10 is tougher than ATS-34) to saying I don't know. Were this high school science class, my hypothesis for this experiment would be that VG-10 is as tough as ATS-34 but not noticeably tougher.

Joe
 
Yes that would agree with CPM's charpy testing which shows the high carbon stainless cutlery steels (BG-42, ATS-34, 440C, VG-10, S30V) are all basically identical in regards to fracture toughness, so I assume the initial impression of VG-10 being tougher was mainly a hardness and/or geometry issue.

-Cliff
 
My experience with ATS-34 is primarily with Benchmade and I have found it to be somewhat brittle. (Many tiny chips in the edge w/use) VG-10's drawback seems to be only cosmetic in that it will hold an edge for longer than most other steels but scratches like crazy. This may only be because I use the knives in question much harder than others. Has anyone else noticed this?
 
Toughness of ATS-34 is superior to VG-10,if these are quenched
at same temperature,and if these have same hardness.Because Moly of VG-10 is lower than ATS-34,and carbide size of VG-10 is bigger.

And also in the case of VG-10,it is added useless Cobalt.
Cobalt is expensive element and additon of 1 to 2% is meaningless.Please study Cobalt high speed steels.I cant find metallurgical reason of chemical composition of VG-10.

Chemical composition developed by only merchant's intention
is not beautiful state.
 
japansteel :

Toughness of ATS-34 is superior to VG-10,if these are quenched at same temperature,and if these have same hardness.
Click to expand...

What magnitude of a difference are we talking about here?

Because Moly of VG-10 is lower than ATS-34,and carbide size of VG-10 is bigger.
Click to expand...

In general comments on VG-10 tend to describe a much easier time of obtaining a very sharp edge highly polished shaving edge. Is the grain size of VG-10 smaller than ATS-34, or is is also bigger like the carbide size.

Which cycle of the ATS-34 tempering are you talking about, the low or high one? At the same RC they have different levels of toughness levels, corrosion resistance and wear resistance.

-Cliff
 
Continuous "Q-fog" testing consistantly shows VG-10 to be superior in corosion resistance than ATS-34, and ATS-55.

Continuous edge testing on a CATRA consistantly shows VG-10 to be superior in sharpness and abrasion resistance to ATS-34 and ATS-55.

The first production VG-10 model was the Spyderco Moran (Hamaguri grind) which was originally sold in the Rc61 range. It was later lowered to 59-60. Fallkniven decided to switch to VG-10 after testing the Spyderco production Moran.

BG-42 (as heat treated by Chris Reeve) proved in "Q-fog" to be superior to ATS-34, ATS-55 and VG10.

We (Spyderco) have purchased VG-10, shipped it to the USA and have already made knives in Golden with VG-10. We also have some on hand.

sal
 
I try to comment metallurgy of such steels.
(1)comment of chemical composition
Feature of 1%C-14%Cr steel like ATS-34 is becoming finer cabide
structure with Moly without using powder metallurgy.This feature was needed before cheap low alloy bearing steel was developed.But this low alloy is not suitable for knife becaus of low corrosion resistance.

(2)comment of steel making process
Powder metallurgy is good way to make finer microstructure
with independence on sort of alloy.But weak point of this way
is making steel contained some oxides inherently.So person who needs mirror finish of steels does not so like this way.

Thiking about these two viewpoint,it can not be considered that
VG-10 is superior to ATS-34 in any kind of steel qualities.
 
Hello Japansteel.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that ATS34 is superior to VG10 for making knives, based on microstructure and the balance of alloying elements.

Can you explain why VG10 has performed better than ATS34 in the CATRA sharpness/edge wear and the Q-fog corrosion testing done by Sal/Spyderco?

Have there been other tests done which shown ATS34 to perform better than VG10?

Thanks.




- Frank.
 
Hi,Mr.frank.

"Particle metallurgy" is not somewhat exact.
"Powder metallurgy" is better internationally.
If you can know steels by not only some imformations but also
experience imfomations by craftmans,you can approach truth.
Such a things can not be measured.
And also I dont know what you want to cut by such a knife,so i
cant explain any more than that.
You will decide what i want to say by yourself after all.
In such a recent information mechanism etc., it is meaninless.Please experiences personally,If you want to know truth.Or please learn such a metallurgy and tribology.
Please it is consider that such data are exact,but it may not be suitable for your demands.Cutting action is depend upon combination with materials,geometories and atomspheres.

japansteel
 
errr.... you mean I've been shelling out more money for VG10 for an illusion of superiority? :confused:
 
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