VG-10 vs ATS-55?

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I don't know, but that won't stop me from expressing an opinion. I expect VG-10 to be sharper and hold an edge better due to its vanadium content. My Fallkniven F1 is tremendously sharp. I don't know who uses ATS-55.

PS. For an interesting alloy chart see:
www.linder.de/English/InfoE/StahltabE.htm


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"Defense against knife attack:
Option 1. If you have a gun shoot him."
 
The latest Endura is ATS-55, no? I have a Calypso of VG-10 and it was unbelievably sharp out of the box. I have worked with scalpels before and I would confidently say the Calypso was as sharp, if not sharper, than any scalpel I've ever used. Absolutely incredible! The edge lasted for quite a while that way, too, and after some decent use it still doesn't need sharpening. I'm very happy with the VG-10 so far...

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http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
 
The high carbon content and adequate chrome content in the ATS steels provides good combination of edge retention and corrosion resistance, with the emphasis being more on edge retention. The addition of molybdenum, primarily for high temperature warp resistance, also adds grain refinement to the steel. ATS-55 is a refinement based on ATS-34. In ATS-55 corrosion resistance is significantly improved over ATS-34 and testing shows edge retention to be comparable. Compared to VG-10, ATS-55 has slightly less chrome and slightly more carbon. The cobalt and molybdenum content is higher in VG-10, alloys that increase strength and hardness. I know that doesn't directly answer the original question, but it's like asking someone "What's the best stuff to put in a stew?" Ask 20 people, get 20 answers.
What some steels favor in edge retention, they may lose in corrosion resistance or sharpness.

Sal has said before "Try to think of steels as being 'different' rather than 'best'. Best changes. Besides, forumites would get bored eating the same style burger at every meal."
I'm sure Sal will post and clarify for us all. Think of my answer as the preamble....
Danelle

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Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder

 
In the lab, VG-10 seems to have a slight advantage in corosion resistance and edge retention. We've only had both steels out for a couple of years and really not enough VG-10 in the field yet to detemine any long term poroblems. Both suffered hydrogen embrittlement as we learned heat treatment optimums. Both have been getting good reports from performance in the field.

We started with 3 new steels about the same time (ATS-55, VG-10, CPM-440V). It wasn't as suicidal as it sounds as we had pretty good evidence going in. I'm sure you'll see several other steels in models next year.
sal
 
Sal,

You indicate that lab tests show VG-10 to hold an edge slightly longer. How do the relative initial sharpnesses compare? What are the reports about Morans from the field? I would expect them to be racking up more real utility usage than most knives.

Where do VG-10 and ATS-55 stand for difficulty to machine (relative to each other and relative to old standbys like AUS-8)?

You've mentioned that AUS-8 gives a smoother edge than VG-10. For cutting fibrous materials a little 'tooth' to an edge can help. Do you think that VG-10 is a good edge for rope or hide?

Jeff
 
Jeff - regarding "how much of a difference", I don't feel that our evidence is conclusive enough at this time to quote numbers (not more than 10% difference). Also numbers seem to breed argument.

Machinability & hardness are about the same. VG-10 will get a little harder without becoming brittle.

The Moran has not been a best seller. That is one of the reasons we're moving slowly on FB. Lowering the price made a big diffence in sales, but we haad to make changes to the model to compensate for the lower price. We have little history with FB models. Still learning.

I'm planning some FB models for "Martial Bladecraft" with trainers promoted mostly to LEOs. Not big production. Will be "nicely done".

AUS-8 has a very uniform grain structure. This enables it to take a very sharp edge. In our Edge tester, the test for sharpness is called the ICP (Initial cutting performance = a total of the first 3 cuts). However ICP is cutting through anywhere from 60 to 120 mm of special card stock. In this test, AUS-8 does not do as well as ATS-55 or VG-10. I think this is becasue the card stock is abrasive enough to remove some of the very sharp "hair popping edge" before it completes the ICP.

We probably won't go below ATS unless making an "Economy" version like the Endura and Delica II or the SpyderCard. Hope this helps.
sal
 
Sal, as someone said recently, "Sharpness is a funny thing." Your mention of the "ICP" leads me to want to know more about your approach to quantifying it. Can you elaborate, or if I've missed your previous discussions of the subject, point me in the right direction?
 
Walker - The edge tester that we use was made by CATRA. It is used by many knife companies in an effort to standardize edge testing.

Although there are many things that can be done in the testing, the machine is designed to keep variables as constant as is possible. The two main tests are for Sharpness and edge retention.

The blade is cutting a custom made card stock approx 1/2" wide and stacked approx 6" thick. One cut after another. The cut is measured in terms of depth of card cut. A standard test on a plain edge is 200 cuts.

The first 3 cuts measured as a total represent the ICP (Initial Cutting Performance). The assumtion is that the sharper the knife is, the deeper it will cut into the card stock on the ist 3 cuts. At that point, we've "already taken off the crisp edge" and now we're going to measure TCC (Total Combined Cuts) or the total depth that the blade was able to accumulate in the 200 cuts. (Serrations use a 400 cut test).

Hope this helps.
sal
 
Thanks Sal for the very interesting information. Of course forumites are never satisfied.
wink.gif


How does the CPM440v such as used in the BF Native compare on the ICP test? Have you tested any Talonite, CPM-420v, or BG-42, and if so how do they compare?
 
Donald - In our tests, with our edges (thin and sharp)

CPM-440V compares well with CPM-420V, BG-42 & Talonite all exceeding 500 TCC (Total card cut) rating.

CPM-440V, CPM-420V and BG-42 are in the 100+ range in ICP.

Please keep in mind that these are excellent results. Often times "Western" thinking has us focus on the top .001% and we seem to lose out on the rest. The above materials are also very difficult to make in production knives.

sal
 
Thanks, Donald; you're exactly right. We're never satisfied with one answer, we want the details. I was hoping someone would ask the follow-up question!

Thanks, Sal, for answers as illuminating as always. I'm curious, though. Spydie knives are known for the quality of their factory edge, so you're testing *your* edge on that steel. Am I right in assuming that this is not necessarily a reflection of the way the steel would perform from another maker?
 
Walker - That is correct. That is why I am hesitant to make claims. We tested a steel that was new from a particular maker. The edge as it came from the factory failed ICP & TCC ratings by our standards. We resharpened the steel and results moved from the "F" range to the "B" range.

We tested a linerlock that proved to have good ("A") rating ultimate strength, but we had to jam the lock for the test because of the "Defeat factor". This model wouldn't pass the "spine-wack" test.

We don't want to be the "official" tester. This is like being a judge which is not our role in the industry. We just desire to seek the truth for our own understanding.
Sal
 
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