Villagers Better Chopping that Polished Blades?

M

munk

Joined
Mar 22, 2002
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Yangdu said it.
Some others have said it.

I guess I could say; 'prove it."

I'm curious. The theory goes the polish treatment, which produces heat, changes the temper of the blade just enough so that a unpolished Villager is actually better. The metalurgists and what-not could weigh in and explain it better if I've mangled the theory.

Is anyone certain the metal used on Villagers and reg HI line is the same? Bill once said he would not guarentee that.

How much heat in the polishing? Must be frying eggs.


I don't own enough Villagers to have tested this, and I know many forumites have their own belief systems. The one Villager I have now, a 20" AK does not perform better than a like sized polished khuk.

But many believe they do. Even Yangdu.

Would rockwell testing edge hardness answer this or not?

I have a pet belief; I think the polished blades may part the wood with ever so slightly less friction, and resist rust better too. But?
I just don't know. I've been chopping firewood, gathering wood specimens for grip handles, etc, for several years now, but doubt I'm objective or could have enough sample to know, even if I knew what to look for.

But maybe some of you do!


munk
 
The real difference between polished and not really starts happening when a Newtonian liquid or fluid (such as water or pressurized air) gets involved. The polished blade will be sticky due to vaccuum, but the slightly dimpled non polished surfaces will self-lubricate. Think about why golf balls have dimples too.

Edit: I should probably go bleach my hair now.
 
there's also this: at some point, they sharpen the knife. very sharp one assumes yes?

THEN after that, they typically put the mirror polish some people want. which dulls the sharpened edge a little bit, yes?

so, out of the box, the villagers are sharper.

my understanding is also that if you take your nice mirror polished khurki, and perform unspeakable sharpenings on it, which typically "ruins" some of the perfect mirroring, it's just as sharp as anything. yes?

my understanding is also that the kamis are reluctant to resharpen after final polishing and thus ruin the potential perfect mirror finish at this point. we ain't. heck, many of us deliberately REMOVE the mirror finish with scotchbright and use them and love them and ...

i vote for more khuks to come in villagerized already :) except the special "collector" ones ;)

bladite
 
Bladite said:
i vote for more khuks to come in villagerized already :) except the special "collector" ones ;)

bladite
Click to expand...

Hear hear. I need a lot of practice sharpening, but I can say that I love polishing the handle myself. I'm still waiting to get my first villager, and I'm looking forward to it. :thumbup:
 
As for the golf ball pimple theory; it's good, and you almost had me there. For one thing, in use, any khuk gets scratches and surface changes, bright finish and Villager. Second, the Villager I have is not uniform, and it has several craters and even a valley. Yet on the other side it is smooth.

I usually refinish the work khuks in satin style, so they eventually migrate into a Village finish, but without the odd surface variance. What does this mean?

I think you'd have to put a lot of craters on your khuk to develope the golf ball syndrome. And why aren't bullets pocketed with craters? Axes?
A golf ball cuts a i r, not wood, right?


This is interesting.


munk
 
Finally, a question *I* know the answer to!

The dimples help the ball travel further and higher by giving them "lift". They create two layers of air going around the ball. The top layer is going faster than the bottom layer, creating turbulence. This reduces the drag and allows the ball to travel further than a smooth ball.

I think the mirror polish simply rounds off the edge...and only occasionally burns the blade.
 
People who know the answers to golf ball questions could be golfers. The golfers will never get me. So many friends over the years, mocking of our artificial world, young, rebellious, and now golfers

munk
 
Not sure either. I do know my best khukuri for edge holding is a Bura BGRS. I cut through two hard, 5" thick logs with that blade and it's still scary sharp. I left in the scabbard for a year and a half... still scary sharp. A little rusty, but scary sharp. I really like that knife.
 
The villagers definitely chop better for me. But I have the feeling that this is the result of my not hesitating to really USE them. True, the polished khuks sometimes have flat spots in the edge -- I always sharpen those out when they arrive (there is a word for a knife that doesn't have an edge: club) -- but getting the first few marks on the finish is like getting the first scratch in a new car. I just hate it when it happens. But the villagers look nicer the more you use them.

James
 
I've had polished kukris that cut fine, I've had villagers that were kinda dull.

I've taken several kukris completely to failure...since I've owned more polished than villager...it's hard to draw a fair comparison.

While it's true that exuberant mirror polishing can "roll" the edge...it is possible to polish and keep a sharp edge (I've done it many times).

For me it has to do with edge geometry. Some of the villagers I've seen and used had more of a flat or convex bevel (rather than hollow)...and they were ground all the way to the edge of the edge.

Either way, I have seen a couple villagers that definitely were good choppers...but since I test and use everything I own...and own plenty of polished blades...I can't honestly say either is better than the other.

Can I vote "thumbs across"?
 
Daniel Koster said:
I've had polished kukris that cut fine, I've had villagers that were kinda dull.

I've taken several kukris completely to failure...since I've owned more polished than villager...it's hard to draw a fair comparison.

While it's true that exuberant mirror polishing can "roll" the edge...it is possible to polish and keep a sharp edge (I've done it many times).

For me it has to do with edge geometry. Some of the villagers I've seen and used had more of a flat or convex bevel (rather than hollow)...and they were ground all the way to the edge of the edge.

Either way, I have seen a couple villagers that definitely were good choppers...but since I test and use everything I own...and own plenty of polished blades...I can't honestly say either is better than the other.

Can I vote "thumbs across"?
Click to expand...

mmm, one of these days, hopefully soon... i can have a couple bench mounted belt grinders... various grits, ultra fine... buffing setup.. yeah.

why?

because i'd like to be able to put an edge on my blades that can be considering scary, but without spending hours doing it.

the WSK i got from you came with a fairly interesting sharp edge. the chopping section was sturdy. good for well, chopping ;) still, at first it was ALMOST sharp enough to easily push cut paper. the very tip had a teeny thing near the tip that took about 15-20 minute to make perfect... one side was perfect... who can complain? i'm a nut - i go for perfect symmetry. man, you can field that "saw". good lord. :) now, the draw knife part, friends, wow. short of the thinnest profile puukko or that s1 i have? sharp as a razor. spiff. i need to use it more :) i left tree sap on it, when i showed it around, and someone asked if it was blood cuz it dried black.

yah. so. i'd like to be able to take all my knives to that level of scary oh my god, and keep them there. i have to say, short of my favorite beater 18" GRS, the WSK is my fav. i seriously intend to use the crap out of it :) mmm, on the other hand, since it's like what? super early model... i should buy another one, and sell it on ebay in 10 years for $5000 :)

whee

bladite
 
My late, lamented "indestructi-bo" was canvas micarta. It had a slightly rough surface over the entire staff. It was magic in the hand, smoothly flowing through your fingers despite the weight.

Extremely smooth wood, though, sticks to your hands. You get a friction burn on your hands, and in a fight, you might die.

J
 
I'm not sure. I've had more edge bending on the Villagers, but once I've sharpened them most seem to cut the same regardless of finish.
 
i dont have anything to say about this.
however, i might suggest that we define our terms.
chopping is a forceful splitting of some substance using a sharpened, weighted plane, or something like that, right?
cutting or shall we say, slicing, is the continuous cutting of a substance by drawing a sharpened plane across its surface and possibly inside the substance.

now that all may be BS, but it does seem obvious that a smooth surface would slice better than a rough surface.
a rough surface might pull out more loose pieces of wood when the blade is removed than a smooth blade. (making the chopping seem more effective)

Waht do yall think ?
 
Despite my 'liking' for a smooth surface on a blade, I've seen no evidence of sticking in wood other than if the edge profile is just too slender for the task, and weight and length of the khuk. Bet that holds true for the roughest Villager too.



munk
 
I think force of impact and edge geometry have more to do with good chopping than sharpness. True, the cutting competitions have a 2x4 cut as part of their competition...but have you noticed that it's always first? The intention is to dull the blade for the other parts of the contest.

That said, I make sure that all my "large" knives can go through a 2x4 twice and still shave hair...so, it's not that it's not possible....nor that sharpness doesn't count...because it does...but edge geometry and force of impact have a greater effect (which is why a dull kukri will still chop...and even outchop a smaller camp knife).
 
Why not shot peen or bead blast a highly polished blade and then sharpen, if the theory holds true then it should cut better? Anybody willing to make the sacrifice?
I would give it a try but I don't have access to a shot peen or a bead blaster these days....
 
Interesting. I would agree that villagers are often better performers out of the box but after regular use and sharpening, the performance gap seems to narrow or disappear for me. Some observations/theories:

1. I'm much more likely to beat the hell out of a "mere" villager than a nice, shiny presentation model. (Although I beat the hell out of presentation models as well, generally speaking.) More use equates to more proficiency, which of course leads to more performance. I may blame the khukuri but perhaps it's me that's improving.
2. Overbuffed edge. I've seen it on everything from swords to (of all things) a Thiers-Issard 5/8. I'm convinced that it happens and I think that it plays a part here, at least initially.
3. Different steel. Not all can guarantee that the steel is different. I can't either but I will say this -- I do a lot of etching and I know how regular HI's etch. Khadkas etch differently, khukuris from other manufacturers etch differently, and villagers etch differently. It's not just the surface finish. The patterns are different, the colors are different, and -- probably most significantly -- the smell is different, much different. The kamis haven't told us one way or the other but I would bet money on the villagers being made of something else.

And, of course, there are the dimples. Like on golf balls. ;)
 
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