Vulcanized fiber durability?

H

HardTripper

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Dec 13, 2010
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Hey guys, Im no regular in this forum but I was hoping the pros could relay me some info. Im in discussion with a knife maker on the colour (theres a U in Canada, ok) of the liners on my knife, he has g10 options but for the colour I want he only has vulcanized fiber. In all of your experiences is vulcanized fiber durable and long lasting in terms of impact and water infiltration? Lots of snow in the winter and lots of paddling in the summer, ah the great north. So let me hear what you have to say about vulcanized fiber. Thanks in advance guys.
 
I am assuming it is the same stuff I use as spacer material. It is an infused product and is plenty strong and stain resistant. It is really more of a plastic than a fiber product. My personal camp knife has red vulcanized spacers under green micarta on 1095 steel and seen about a year of hard use. (120 or so days in the woods or on the water). So far no issues.
 
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As a liner/spacer material it has stability issues. VF is gasket material and as a liner it can in theory add a layer of shock absorbsion and allow slight flex. Sandwiched between steel and a hard handle and empregnated with epoxy I think it is fine. I have heard that over time the color can be washed away.

I asked the same question before and the consensus was to stay clear but I'm still on the fence. After all, it's widely sold for this exact purpose.
 
I know Koster uses it and has mentioned it might move around a little under the scales, Im leaning towards g10 or maybe just forgoing liners. Either way its a compromise, good answers so far and Im still welcoming more folks experiences. Keep em coming people.
 
Feeling silly over here, as usual a google search turned up a lot of bad experiences, namely from Andy Roy. G10 it is.
 
Basically every Loveless knife and every Loveless style maker uses it. Decades (thousands) worth of knives.
 
Thats interesting to hear, so Loveless, Koster, and Gossman are big names I know of using it. Big Chris uses it although prioritizes g10 when possible, Andy Roy stopped using it, and James Terrio stopped using it. To be safe Im going with G10.
 
G-10 is the safer route though I still use a fair amount on straight blades. It can
move but for my purposes not enough to ever matter. I've had stabilized woods,
and just about every other handle material move as much.
Ken.
 
I have made hundreds of knives with Vulcanized Fiber, and seeing as it has been sold by the suppliers for decades, I would suppose that hundreds of thousands..... even millions, of knives have been made with it. I have not ever had an issue, and don't personally know of anyone else who has. My guess is that those with the big problems have not assembled their handles properly. The number one culprit is to much clamp pressure squeezing out all the epoxy.

Recently there have been discussions saying it is a bad choice, buy I don't see the problems claimed in my knives. Certainly, G-10 liner will be harder and more impermeable, but unless you plan on keeping the knife submerged for hours, I don't see a problem with VF.

This search engine will help you find past discussion threads:
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Now, for my 2 cents worth of advice......Any full tang handle made with Corby rivets and solid scales will never fail. Using VF liners won't affect this.
However, if you are making a handle with scales that are stacked up of different materials and those are spaced with colored VF, then you have an inherent weakness. While this "Scagel" look is great as a hidden tang construction, it is a bad way to make scales.
 
This is one of those things where theres a thumbs up for every thumbs down. bladsmth must be right in saying its more execution than a inherent defect with the material, this decision has gotten no easier. Maybe Ill get 2 knives and form my own opinion.
 
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It does not matter how many knives have been built using a process or material. When a better process or material becomes available, adapt. Some people call it Continuous Quality Improvement.

We spent years looking for a G10 manufacturer who would make G10 thin enough to be used for liner material. We were the first supplier to offer thin G10 for liners. We did this because of two reasons:
1) Vulcanized fiber absorbs water and swells
2) Vulcanized fiber shinks

Neither problem occurs with a G10 liner.

Shrinkage:
We have knives in our collection where the fiber has shrunk back from the knife tang. The liner was flush when we bought the knife. The shrinkage is .010"-.015" and is noticeable when you examine the knife.

Swelling:
Twice we've received wood back from knifemakers where the wood broke between corby bolts. Both times the knife was put into the dishwasher. The water and heat caused the vulcanized fiber to swell enough to break the wood. The epoxy used was Acraglas. There was sufficient epoxy to hold the wood. The problem was the inferior liner material.

If you don't mind taking the risk of having a knife returned for warranty work and an unhappy customer, keep using vulcanized fiber. If you want to reduce your warranty work and improve your knives, use G10 for liner material.

Using vulcanized fiber is similar to edge packing. It was popular at one time, but now we know better.
 
A couple years ago I messed up two handles at the same time, both were wood. I had to remove them and one had liners and one did not. The one with liners peeled up without too much of a problem. The one one that was metal to wood did not peel off and in fact was ripping the wood apart. On another knife I made I had the fiber shrink a little before I could even sell it! I would never use the stuff again.
 
Well put Alpha. Technically CQI has been happening since stone tools, and it looks like we have turned yet another corner.
 
When I switched from Vulcanized Fiber to G10 and micarta liners it was because I was fixing a lot of handles. A few a month. This was in 2008. Knives that were correct when shipped had the slightest (definitely feelable) bit of exposed tang due to shrinkage of the VF when sent back. Re-sand the handle, and re-finish the tang, and ship it back. 20 minutes max, so not a business killer. I have not fixed one since. Not one handle repair in aprox 2000 knives.

I switched away from corby bolts at that same time. This was not due to some flaw with them, but because I discovered phlolic pins, and it was so much easier to finish the handles with them. They sand to the level of the handle scale material, and never made a proud bump. AND they never burn the handle material. Both problems were manageable back when I used metal pins, but why deal with it. Again, since the switch, no handle repairs.

If everyone agrees that the material is not stable and contracts and swells, then what is this debate about? In my shop I hear the argument, "I've never had a problem with VF. You must be doing something wrong." At the same time the maker insists on using stable/bombproof materials for their scales. This is ludicrous to me. Do you want your handle to be stable, or don't you? Putting an unstable material at the foundation of the handle makes no sense.
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
It does not matter how many knives have been built using a process or material. When a better process or material becomes available, adapt. Some people call it Continuous Quality Improvement.

We spent years looking for a G10 manufacturer who would make G10 thin enough to be used for liner material. We were the first supplier to offer thin G10 for liners. We did this because of two reasons:
1) Vulcanized fiber absorbs water and swells
2) Vulcanized fiber shinks

Neither problem occurs with a G10 liner.

Shrinkage:
We have knives in our collection where the fiber has shrunk back from the knife tang. The liner was flush when we bought the knife. The shrinkage is .010"-.015" and is noticeable when you examine the knife.

Swelling:
Twice we've received wood back from knifemakers where the wood broke between corby bolts. Both times the knife was put into the dishwasher. The water and heat caused the vulcanized fiber to swell enough to break the wood. The epoxy used was Acraglas. There was sufficient epoxy to hold the wood. The problem was the inferior liner material.

If you don't mind taking the risk of having a knife returned for warranty work and an unhappy customer, keep using vulcanized fiber. If you want to reduce your warranty work and improve your knives, use G10 for liner material.

Using vulcanized fiber is similar to edge packing. It was popular at one time, but now we know better.
Click to expand...


I think the resistance to change may be that they want the Loveless look and the other suppliers still sell that vulcanized red.

The photo you have of the Ruby Red is very dark,

Do you have a "Fire Engine Red" or "Hooker Lipstick Red" available ?

G10-Red-s.jpg
 
My experience with the fiberglass reds is that they always come out looking pinkish. That is a definite drawback. I don't use them at all.
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
1) Vulcanized fiber absorbs water and swells
2) Vulcanized fiber shrinks

Neither problem occurs with a G10 liner.
Click to expand...
Those are facts. Not opinions. Not a matter of taste or emotion or what's cheapest. :thumbup:
HardTripper said:
Thats interesting to hear, so Loveless, Koster, and Gossman are big names I know of using it. Big Chris uses it although prioritizes g10 when possible, Andy Roy stopped using it, and James Terrio stopped using it. To be safe Im going with G10.
Click to expand...
That's true, I do not any longer, and WILL not in the future, use vulcanized fiber on any of my knives. It has failed me before, and it's just one more variable that might bite me on the behind six months or ten years from now. :thumbdn: G10 has never failed me. :thumbup:

12345678910 said:
I think the resistance to change may be that they want the Loveless look and the other suppliers still sell that vulcanized red.
Click to expand...

The "ruby red" G10 I've bought from a couple different suppliers, mostly AKS but also USAknifemaker, looks almost identical to the red liners I've seen on Loveless knives at shows, when sanded to a high grit. In thin sections and at a high level of finish (800 grit or above), the layered pattern is very hard to see. It just looks red (or blue or...) and solid.
 
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