Waiting Lists and Orders

W

Will Leavitt

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Jul 28, 2006
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Well since the Scott Cook thread sorta veered off into a waiting list discussion I thought I'd start something along those lines. Most of us will admit that knifemakers aren't usually the best at business. If we were, we wouldn't be making knives :p I'd like to hear how you would like waiting lists run.

I don't have a very long waiting list unless your name is Lorien. Most knives are able to be delivered within 3-4 months. I am getting somewhat overwhelmed with the requests for my EDK and SFC. NOT THAT I MIND!!!! I'm tickled silly that people want to buy knives from me but I'm kind of stuck making them and not working on projects that allow me to refine some skills. I was wondering what you guys thought about waiting lists and how you'd like for makers to have their lists set up and work.

I currently use an Excel spread sheet with person's name, order date, knife information, date started, completed and shipped/tracking number and cost. I need to add contact information but I usually keep that in Outlook.

I'm thinking for myself I'm going to keep basically 3 lists. 1 list is for specific orders like I dunno, goloks and oyster knives and other special orders, a list for EDK and a list for SFC. I usually forge a couple of EDKs when I forge out special orders and I plan on making the SFC in batches of 10-20. I work my special list in according to order dates, when I have EDK ready I'll contact the people in order and the same with the SFC. Do any of you have suggestions on how to improve this system?

I'm open to suggestions, ideas or to hear how other makers handle their waiting list.
 
Knifemakers make knives for different reasons.
I took early retirement from my engineering job because I was very tired of keeping lists and reporting and recording details of my job. Working in the nuclear industry required detailed and extensive record keeping.
I make knives because it is a true passion for me. I would still make them even if I could not sell a single one. Detailed record keeping and constant correspondance would bring the very thing that made me leave my job into the craft I that has been an escape from all that. I have a large cork board, and simply pin the orders to it in sequence. Generally this indicates a spot on the list. Just before I start work on the knife I contact the client and we discuss the type of knife to be made. I then prepare some drawings and work from that.
Because my knives have become much more involved, and most clients want the latest "one of a kind designs", the waiting time is stretching out.
I feel that the long waiting list I have now is unfair to my customers, but each one is entitled to receive exactly what he wants, so unfortunately things are what they are. I stopped taking orders several years ago, but the waiting time has not become shorter, for the reasons listed above. I do not ever take deposits, I do not want to be responsible for other peoples money. When I have finally worked my way trough the waiting list, I will only make knives to sell as they are completed, maybe with a list of customers who would like to be contacted when a piece is available.
Long waiting lists are a pain to the client and the maker. I feel guilty about the work I still need to deliver, but even working an average of 70+ hours a week, I have a hard time catching up.
Wolfgang
 
A few general thoughts that mostly apply to longer wait lists. If you are kicking out your kives within 90 days, you are probably avoiding most of the problems associated with order lists.

1) If your list runs 3 years or more - time to close it. Too many variables at play over too long a period of time to make delivery dates at all meaningful. Plus, you don't want to be delivering knives today at prices of 3 years ago.

2) Stay in touch. If a year has past since you last spoke with someone on that list, that is way too long. Just a quick e-mail - even twice a year - to let them know they are not forgotten and inform them of their progress on your list will be very much valued.

3) Please DO contact the customer when his turn is near approaching, but BEFORE you start work on his knife - lots can change over time on the customer end as well. A quick chat before work begins can allow for any change in preference and give the customer some lead time to assemble funds.

4) Do not ask for or take deposits.

5) If you're going to run a list, then actually run a list. By that I mean the thing shoud actually exist. Make an effort to keep records of the orders placed and the sequence in which they arrived. Make it clear to your customers that show knives and other projects will be addressed over time and at your discretion, but assure them that you will progress through your list such that over time, their order is actually getting closer to being filled.

6) For crying out loud be realistic (even better, be pessimistic) about your anticipated delivery dates. If you tell me 2 years and it takes 18 months, that is no problem (provided you give me that heads-up mentioned earlier). If you tell me 6 months and it takes three years....

I'm sure more will occur to me, but that's off the top of my head.

Roger
 
Will, sounds like you have a good system. A Microsoft Excel spreadsheet is all that's needed to keep track of any and all information.
IMO, it's pretty simple from a collector/customer standpoint. We want to place an order, get what we ordered in the time duration promised.

Collectors do need to realize however that scheduling is not an exact science as things do happen. There's hold-up on getting material, shows to get ready for, special projects, orders from priority clients and such. Makers need to be sensitive to all these areas if they are going to be in the business (yes business) long term.

I don't expect a maker to hold my hand by contacting me at various intervals throughout the process, however if I need to talk to him I expect him to be available. It seems some collectors who complain the most of overdue orders are the same who stay on the phone BS-ing with makers all day long. Makers have to maintain a certain balance between producing, administrative work and spending time with their customers (and on forums ;):D).

I expect for a maker to be honest and fair when placing priority in filling orders, however I don't fault him/her if an order from a longtime and/or high volume customer is placed ahead of me. All businesses do it from the corner restaurant who gives their four visit a month customer the best table to airlines, rental cars, hotels and such.

I doubt many maker's go to the effort Will does in keeping records. I bet there's quite a few who don't even keep a record of orders. A collector can usually tell what kind of records a maker keeps by checking order status via phone. In the past there's been experiences where I could tell makers didn't even known who I was must less when my knife would be ready. I learned early in my collecting that if you expect to get the knives you want, you have to be selective in choosing who you order from.

Will, speaking of orders, I'm invited to an oyster roast tomorrow night. ;):D:)
 
I stopped taking orders in 07, the list too long and the stress too high. Still working on the list but am pretty much staying on time.

I much prefer to have a list of names, folks who want to be contacted when I have one available. This has been working very good lately. I am flexable though and will except an occasional order, as long as it's not too detailed and is something I want to make.

Big, long waiting lists are not always good for the maker or customer...
 
I would echo a few things that Roger said. I am new to collecting and can tell you there are definitely some turn-offs associated with this process... as well as some things that don't turn me off. I'm a patient man so being on a list isn't the end of the world, but...

As Roger said, if there's a list it should be a list. How much trouble is it to enter a name on a spreadsheet? If that's too much trouble to do that for an expensive purchase then a maker doesn't have my confidence.

I think Roger's right about the three year cut-off (or there-abouts). I recently was added to a list for December 2015. That's just crazy. I did it just because it's so stupid.

And I agree with the no deposit approach. If someone doesn't want to pony up when you actually start the knife there will be someone ready to take their place but holding money for an indeterminate amount of time is wrong.
 
I understand that people make and buy knives for different reasons. I am a scatter brained person and if I don't make lists I will forget. I despise paperwork but I despise having to explain my failures to people even more.

I don't take deposits and hate recieving payments but some people mail me payment because if they don't spend it now when they budget the purchase the money won't be available later. It really makes me feel under the gun but I do the best I can while keeping in constant contact with those people to know exactly where they are.
 
I fill out a Work Order form - with customer contact info, knife constructions specs, etc - with one copy to my computer, and one hard copy goes on a clipboard that hangs right over my most often used work bench.
Each customer has his own file. Hard copy file.
I contact the customer when I see their knife coming up in the next month or so.
Speak directly over the phone when possible.
Delivery dates ARE realistic.
No B.S.
No B.S.
No B.S.
 
Will Leavitt said:
I don't take deposits and hate recieving payments but some people mail me payment because if they don't spend it now when they budget the purchase the money won't be available later.
Click to expand...

red flag, imo.
A deposit can become an extortion, or a tool for blackmail, and gives the potential customer too much leverage, which some will use to make your life miserable or damage your reputation. It's a little different when you are a merchant, as I am, but as a craftsman it can be a slippery slope.

Unless you personally know the patron and feel confident that a deposit is necessary for them, just say NO. But having discretion in who you deal with and how you deal with them, is almost the #1 reason for going into business for yourself. Some potential customers just might not be a good fit, and getting burned is the best way to learn that lesson, unfortunately.

It's not right or wrong to follow any particular format, but I find it best to stick to my guns and be consistent, unless I feel confident that I can bend my own rules to everyone's benefit.

This is a great topic which really brings the interests of makers and patrons together:thumbup::cool:
 
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I like Roger's list, but I think deposits should be asked for in certain circumstances:

1. Rare materials such as pre-ban ivory or customer specific ornamentation (how many Johan Schlockerknosher Rodriguez III's are buying bowies with their name in the blade in canned damascus these days?)

2. The customer seems like or is "a nice guy," but has backed out of a previous agreement with the maker after the knife is done. We all need a second chance, but it shouldn't be free.
 
I have no problem with how a maker keeps track of his orders, a spreadsheet, a cork board or anything else is fine as long as the maker delivers knives in the order that they were placed.

I also realize that sometimes there are rare circumstances, such as to active duty military, where the list is ignored, especially if the maker states this up front.

I realize that if a maker attends shows he has to have a knives on hand for immediate purchase by the attendees. This means a few knives to show his skill, not a table full of knives to sell with a long back ordered knife list.

I have a couple of knives that I ordered 10 and 11 years ago from a famous maker. He stopped taking custom orders awhile back, so that he could concentrate on his existing knife list. He regularly attends 4-6 shows per year. He typically sells 20+ knives per show.

This is not acceptable in my opinion. He should deliver knives ordered many years ago before he sells so many knives at multiple shows.

Every maker should deliver knives in the manner in which they were ordered.
 
10 year waiting list AND 20 knives at a show? :eek: I figured most makers in that situation might have 5 knives max at a show. :confused:

Lorien, I understand appreciate what you're saying, the few times it happens the payment sits in an envelope in my dresser. But it's still there, taunting me.
 
1. Rare materials such as pre-ban ivory or customer specific ornamentation (how many Johan Schlockerknosher Rodriguez III's are buying bowies with their name in the blade in canned damascus these days?)

2. The customer seems like or is "a nice guy," but has backed out of a previous agreement with the maker after the knife is done. We all need a second chance, but it shouldn't be free
Click to expand...
.
I agree with thrombrogan but perhaps the maker should'nt take a deposit until he starts working on that customers knife.
 
Make sure you have a backup of your computerized lists and back it up with each new order. Too many small (and large) businessmen learn this lesson the hard way.
 
Great topic

From a buyers point of view it would be great if you could go to the knife makers website and see a list with your name on it and an estimated ETA for the knife next to it.

Not that this is a deal breaker for me, as I have knives on order with two makers. One that will be delivered in the next 4 to 5 months and another in 18 months (I hope)

It would just be nice to see, that's all.
 
Make sure you have a backup of your computerized lists and back it up with each new order. Too many small (and large) businessmen learn this lesson the hard way.
Click to expand...


I was on one makers list , who lost his list TWICE ( PC crash ). After being told , I know you were in the top 10 , and still not getting a delivery in the next year or so , this after waiting 2 1/2 years ( on an original 6 month date range ) , I gave up waiting and moved on.

A few others have faltered as well , I try to avoid getting on any makers list who quotes over a year , I am just not that patient , and will instead look to the secondary to find one of that makers knives , or hope to get one at a show.

When I started making knives , I decided , no lists , and just make what I want and put it up for sale. Works for me so far.

Nice thread...
 
This might be of interest to some. This maker publishes his wait list on-line, shows you his order system, describes his policies and approach to orders and the list and provides a great deal of information for anyone who visits his web-site. I had not seen anything like this before. http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife Progress.htm

I understand that orders and lists are an acceptable mechanism for many makers and collectors/customers, but it doesn't work for me. I purchase knives that are already finished and available for me to examine. I'm not on anybody's list and I don't place orders. I don't want to detract from the healthy discussion going on here so I won't say more about that now. Mine is clearly a minority view described in post #37 here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633174

While there is a lot of good information in this thread for anyone who is interested in the topic, I resonate most closely with what Don Hanson said above.
 
there are so many pages in Jay's website, I keep coming across new ones. His site is so like his knives eh?
Thanks for bringing the page up, I'm sure there are a few people who will find a great deal of value in discovering it:cool:
 
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