Want to REALLY discuss your quenching methods?

Matthew Gregory

Matthew Gregory

Chief Executive in charge of Entertainment
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Jan 12, 2005
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Well, you're in luck! The ASM just announced their 6th International Quenching and Control of Distortion Conference.

Promote your research and advance the industry for the future.
Submit your abstract for presentation.
Abstract submission deadline: February 6, 2012

-Fundamentals Principles
-Material and Shape Optimization
-Control and Elimination of Distortion
-Quenchants (oil, polymer and other quenchants)
-Process Methodology to Control Distortion and Residual Stresses
- Measurement of Residual Stresses
-Modeling of Processes and Phenomena
-Heat Transfer as Applied to Distortion Control
-Agitation Measurement and Control; Computational Fluid Dynamics
-Equipment Design and Fixturing
-Finite Element Analysis and Constitutive Equations; Boundary Conditions



-Relationship of Microstructure and Quenching
-Interactions of Different Production Processes
-In-process Measurement of Deformations, Temperatures, Stresses, and Phase Compositions
-Quality Management
-Methods of Distortion Compensation
-Simulation of Single and Couplings of Subsequent Processes such as Casting, Forming, Machining and Heat Treatment
-Measurement of Material Data and Foundary Conditions (e.g. heat transfer) for Process Simulation


Perhaps knifemaking will develop beyond the cozy little campfire circle we've created if we consider interacting with others outside of it... and maybe, just maybe, we'll be surprised to find a group of folks that are just as passionate about this stuff as we are - not the cold, calculating automatons we've built in our heads to fit the mask of 'scientist' for our narrow worldviews.

Good luck on your submissions!
 
I know I should be interested more in the technical side of knifemaking Matt but I have the hardest time. :(

Is that normal?
 
Patrice Lemée;10213779 said:
I know I should be interested more in the technical side of knifemaking Matt but I have the hardest time. :(

Is that normal?
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It all seems kind of esoteric when you look at it as a bunch of numbers and theories, but when you look at it as a bunch of interactions (this will work to do that, but if you add a little of this the two will combine to do this) then it starts to make real world sense. Where it gets complicated is when you start dealing with high alloy stuff with 7 or 8 phases and solid solution precipitates, but we don't deal with most of that with steel

-Page
 
To me, heat treating is the "birth" of a blade and is my favorite part of knifemaking. I wish I had more equipment, education, & time to do research and properly conduct experiments. Finding out what effect a certain change has on a the finished product is very interesting to me. Guess I'm just wierd like that.
 
I will wait with great anticipation for the canola crowd presents their dissertation.
The GOOP, 10W30, and bear grease folks won't have time enough to be ready by February 2012.

Matt, keep us posted about the publishing of the presenters.
 
I'll wait for the musical.





Ha!..... just messin' Matt................ unless there really IS a musical... if so, I'm there, man!
 
bladsmth said:
I will wait with great anticipation for the canola crowd presents their dissertation.
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I will have to add their papers to the other studies. I am still hoping someone will post the studies for their favorite quenches:)
 
Chirp Chirp, awfully quiet in here! Funny how some are so vocal to people they can fool, but so quiet to those they can't.
 
I would have thought that several folks here would have jumped at the opportunity to share their insights with the industrial and scientific communities...Just think of how much money could be saved by industry if they were aware that their engineered polymer quenchants could be replaced with less expensive options such as canola oil. Not to mention the fact that canola is a much more environmentally friendly quenchant and would help save the planet.

I don't get it, if I had something that was clearly as good or superior to a more expensive and more environmentally harmful product, I'd be all over letting people know. What gives guys?

-d
 
One or more has been banned, the otrhers are being quiet right now.

Best we not goad them into action. Quiet is not always a bad thing.
 
We had our annual “Canola Quench Fest” a while back. The 2012 CCF is a ways off. We’ll have to wait until then to see if there are any new developments. Sorry.
 
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deker said:
Just think of how much money could be saved by industry if they were aware that their engineered polymer quenchants could be replaced with less expensive options such as canola oil. Not to mention the fact that canola is a much more environmentally friendly quenchant and would help save the planet.
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Houghton even makes an engineered vegetable oil based quench, but it's marketed as intended for environmentally sensitive applications.
 
I would say that one of the reasons this topic generates such heated debate is because those posting opinions are not using rigorous scientific methods to derive those opinions. It's almost entirely based on anecdotal information. So, quite frankly, it becomes little more than a contest to see who can shout the loudest and urinate the farthest.

Mind you, some folks do quote data that was ostensibly derived from scientific methods... but that's a bit like quoting statistics found on the Internet... unless you know the methods behind the data, how certain can you really be of the accuracy of the data? it comes to a question of faith again... whose data do you believe, the company selling their product? the guy with practical application experience? The "independent" test lab that is never really identified?

To do this properly you'd need to limit as many of the variables as possible. For example, when comparing quenchants, how do you insure that the chemical composition of the test pieces is identical? How do you insure that the stress relief done on each piece is identical? How do you insure that the heat applied is identical? And so on. If you allow the variables to drift, the results drift too.

You'd also need to agree upon the metrics for measurement of the variables. For example, how do you measure the stress before and after quench? How do you measure grain size? What sample sizes do you use? How do you obtain the samples? How do you calibrate the meters to insure that they yield comparably accurate results? And so on.

It's all well and good to do your own testing and determine what works best for you under "similar" situations, but that frankly doesn't translate well into definitive results. It's just another pool of anecdotal information. No matter how rigorous you attempt to be in your own testing, unless you control and document all of teh variables, it's still just anecdotal information. Which is all very good, by the way... just not definitive.

So that's my contribution to the topic. Make of it what you will. I know nothing about the quenchants, per se, but I do see the flaws in all the previous arguments about them.

- Greg
 
I really learned a lot from all the papers and studies that have been linked here on the use of alternative quenchents such as Canola. The papers answer many of the questions and discuss in detail the use of them and their properties.

I know people say "Read what has been posted first" and that is good advice for everybody not just the new members.
 
I forgot to mention, this year's "CQF" was a blast! Some of the biggest names in canola were there. Aside from all the great information, there were loads of fried fish, chicken, deep fried turkeys,... and one of the leading researchers, Dr. Nerdowski, demonstrated how to deep fry a whole cow!

What a hoot!
 
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Tai Goo said:
I forgot to mention, this year's "CQF" was a blast! Some of the biggest names in canola were there. Aside from all the great information, there were loads of fried fish, chicken, deep fried turkeys,... and one of the leading researchers, Dr. Nerdowski, demonstrated how to deep fry a whole cow!

What a hoot!
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Did you deep fry an owl too? :P

Tryppyr raises a good point, there are variables in almost every step of the heat treat process, and would be nearly impossible to eliminate all variables.
 
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