Warning! Gerber LMF users must read!

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ml100

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Jul 19, 2005
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I recently purchased a Gerber LMF ASEK, since recently I tend to go for pilot knives.
The following pics show the Gerber LMF ASEK in comparison to the Ontario ASEK:


In sheaths


Now what seems important info for me to share is this:




What you see there, is what is commonly refered to as the glass breaker pommel of these ASEK knives.
The Ontario's pommel works perfectly as a glass breaker. I had the chance to test this on several safety glass windows, and it always did the job with the first hit.


Where the Ontario worked flawlessly, the LMF ASEK failed miserably. I could not break a single safety glass, even after several hits with considerably more force than with the Ontario ASEK. Maybe even more force would have helped, but I was at the point, where I worried about my hand and arm when using more impact force.

NOW: Gerber NEVER said it would be a glass breaker. The intended use is for PLEXIGLASS. And guess what: I bought some Plexisglass (6 mm thickness), fixed it thightly and SUCCESSFULLY used the LMF ASEK to break it.

SO: Though you would think a tip is a tip and both pommels should work on safety glass alike, they do not.
If you keep the Gerber LMF ASEK in your car, and you intend to use it as a glass breaker in case of an emergency, be warned: IT MAY NOT WORK.

Any similar experience? Did anyone else test the LMF on glass?

Correction: It does work, I was wrong. See below
 
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This is good consumer advice! Strange that they wouldn't harden it enough to break the most commonly broken glass out there... That's like designing a condom that only works on women whose name starts with the letter "D".
 
Sorry, gotta call BS

1) I've tried it myself on safety glass as well as plexiglass, as well as ceramic plates and TV screens and blocks of ice - it works just fine, 1 hit on the safety glass.
2) First hit on youtube:

[video=youtube;xaWe8bSA4Vk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaWe8bSA4Vk[/video]

3) Did you see the Noss destruction test videos of the LMFII ?? What about the Blackforestghost videos? It does EVERYTHING it's designed to do and more... which is a heck of a lot better than the POS Ontario (with the BLADE hardened only to ~51 HRC :confused:)
 
Is "safety glass" in Europe made to the same standard as "safety glass" in the U.S.?

ED: The Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine noted in a 2000 article that European makers were starting to return to laminated glass for side windows, replacing tempered glass.
 
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I tested it on windows of old train waggons. There the Ontario worked, but the LMF did not. Maybe these Windows have a higher Standard. BTW I can't see why the Ontario should be a POS. Have you used it?
 
Yes, I've used both.

Ontario: poor handle design/ergos, guard-design, rear-guard design, sawback, serrations, blade geometry and steel hardness, and then there's the sheath... It's like someone was trying to make a pry-bar but cut it too short and thought, "well, let's sharpen an edge and put some teeth on the spine and sell it to the military!" As a knife, it's sad. But it does throw well!

Gerber: excellent handle design/ergos - easy to handle/control in all environments and adverse conditions, temperature/impact/electric insulation, good forward/rear guard design, forward & rear lanyard attachment points, better blade geometry and easy to improve, better serrations, hardened steel so it keeps its edge but still doesn't chip readily, MUCH better sheath, functional hammer design, and still an effective prybar ;)
 
OK: After diffeernt results with the glass breaker by other members in the forum or on the internet, I re-tested today. It did work. I used a lot more force now, and hit the window more in the center. The glass broke. So after my experience with the Ontario, I obvioulsly did not hit hard enough.
I admit, I was wrong!
Sorry guys!
 
Good review, good comments, and kudos for OP updating his results. BTW, I don't own either of these exact knives although I own the smaller Gerber junior-LMF version and the Ontario USAF classic pilot knife.

The pommel photos are very revealing.

My observation would be, for an emergency escape knife where seconds count and you may be pinned, how much good is a pommel design that works ONLY when you can hit the exact center of the glass and with X force?

Seems like a ballpeen hammer might be a better choice yet. Just sayin'.
 
BTW, the solid steel pommel of both the classic (stacked leather handle) Ontario USAF pilot knife and the steel butt cap on the various KaBar 7" USMC models are pretty effective general use hammers.
for specifically smashing out auto windows, though, a pommel wide enough to protect your gripping hand/wrist/arteries is important. Wide is your friend.
 
The wider the pommel, the more distributed the force and the less likely the glass will break.

I am not sure how the pommel provides protection in any case. Trying to visualize that. :confused:

MK II's with broken pommels are on eBay all the time. I used to pound nails for $$, and no MK II pommel made is anything like hammer strength.

Now the pommel on the Air Force Survival Knife is very strong, I understand it was intended to be useful to break out aircraft windows.
 
After having used both knives I do not really agree to chiral.grolim's conclusion about the Ontario.
I like the ergos on both knives, the Ontario actually feels a bit better in my hands. He's certainly right on the steel or heat treatment, edge retention seems better on the Gerber. Electrical/temperature insulation is the same for both knives. About the guard, I think that's personal perference.
The sheath of the Gerber is better built, knife retention is more secure, but the sheath is much thicker and wider as well. The belt cutter of the Ontario is included in the sheath, the belt cutter of the LMF comes in an extra sheath. The sharpening device of the Gerber is maybe helpful for a person, that never sharpened a knife before, the ceramic rod of the Ontario is much more helpful to me.
I would prefer the pommel of the Ontario any time over the pommel of the LMF.
My conclusion would be rather like that:
The LMF makes certainly the better knife, but overall I don't see a clear winner here. However, that's just my personal opinion.
 
I don't think it was designed as a glass breaker it is a skull crusher pommel. These are combat knives not rescue tools.
 
@shaving sharp, obviously any knife can become a fighting knife at the user's whim. But each of these is designed with multi-use in mind, and more outdoors tool than weapon IMHO. A dedicated fighting knife to me is a Sykes style stiletto or some other dagger type, or a slasher. Cutting up a human opponent is not their driving design purpose IMO.

@ThomasLinton, you're correct about the sturdy pommel on the USAF knife. The old style (leather grip) pommel is flat, which makes an effective all purpose hammer tool. The new kraton model has a conical/pointed pommel end, probably better for smashing glass but less useful for general campsite hammering.

My point about pommel design is that a broader pommel impact area which 'covers' more of your hand/wrist as you smash laterally through flat glass is better protection than a narrow design like the Gerber's, which initially pierces like a knife rather than a hammer (and is more prone to glancing b/c of its narrow strike edge). The broader pommel hopefully pushes more of the glass out of the way of your hand area and hopefully sends the glass buckling out away from you (in theory). Remember your hand will most likely follow through somewhat past the impact, maybe more than intended in an emergency, and jagged glass is Bad News.
Whereas the LMF design pierces the glass more narrowly, leaving your little finger as the next solid object to impact the now-broken glass. Not so good (and neither is even close to ideal). The USAF pommel design is the better of two evils.

I don't own either knife but I own close variants of each. That Ontario looks like it would be a natural ergonomic fit in my hand, and personally I prefer the smaller less bulky sheath on the Ontario as well. Just wish it had a flat based pommel like its predecessor.
 
Tallahassee said:
My point about pommel design is that a broader pommel impact area which 'covers' more of your hand/wrist as you smash laterally through flat glass is better protection than a narrow design like the Gerber's, which initially pierces like a knife rather than a hammer (and is more prone to glancing b/c of its narrow strike edge). The broader pommel hopefully pushes more of the glass out of the way of your hand area and hopefully sends the glass buckling out away from you (in theory). Remember your hand will most likely follow through somewhat past the impact, maybe more than intended in an emergency, and jagged glass is Bad News.
Whereas the LMF design pierces the glass more narrowly, leaving your little finger as the next solid object to impact the now-broken glass. Not so good (and neither is even close to ideal). The USAF pommel design is the better of two evils.

I don't own either knife but I own close variants of each. That Ontario looks like it would be a natural ergonomic fit in my hand, and personally I prefer the smaller less bulky sheath on the Ontario as well. Just wish it had a flat based pommel like its predecessor.
Click to expand...

Using each glass-breaker as intended, NEITHER keeps the glass away from your hand (the entire pommel penetrates the glass when it shatters for both) but the LMF certainly protects your pinky better than the straight shaft of the ontario. Also neither is more/less prone to glancing - the difference in width isn't really substantial.

Also, :thumbup: to ml100 for updating his post.
 
For those testing to break glass... The center of a lite of tempered glass is always stronger than the edge. Always strike near the edge. I know because I use to work in a glass tempering plant. Fun stuff to break!
 
Nice tip, Bush, thanks.

Chiral, from the pics it looks like the LMF pommel offers very little protection for the user's hand, but since I don't own the knife myself I'll agree to disagree. LMF pommel extends to a longer 'point' so it should break glass slightly further from the hand than the shorter ASEK pommel, but then it's narrower.

Slow mo video closeup of both knives hitting flat glass? Anyone? Bueller?
 
I believe the lmf was for stranded pilots, and the pointy pommel and electrical insulation designed for breaking the cockpit to get out. So the pommel is not primarily an skull crusher, but a glass breaker.
 
Ditto, both these competing knives are designed as a cockpit/wreckage escape knife first, then a general ground survival knife while awaiting helicopter extraction. Combat was not on the design agenda. Making a jungle shelter lean-to and cleaning fish, yes, ocean raft chores possibly, but not going Inigo Montoya on the natives, no.
 
Tallahassee said:
Chiral, from the pics it looks like the LMF pommel offers very little protection for the user's hand, but since I don't own the knife myself I'll agree to disagree. LMF pommel extends to a longer 'point' so it should break glass slightly further from the hand than the shorter ASEK pommel, but then it's narrower.
Click to expand...

The LMF pommel and handle feature a prominent 'birds beak' that aids in retention, indexing, and does provide some minimal protection to the pinky-finger when using the glass-breaker. The Ontario does not have this and relies on a tight index/thumb grip around the collar above the palm swell to prevent the hand from slipping (along with the textured rubber handle itself, which both feature). The extended pommel of the LMF certainly provides more distance between the hand and the glass being struck BUT, as can be seen in this and other videos of various knives featuring glass-breakers, the distance is not sufficient when the users entire hand tends to penetrate through the window as it shatters due to the amount of force being applied and momentum of the hand. HOWEVER, this is NOT the way GERBER recommends that their glass-breaker be used. Instead, they designed the sheath to act as a handle, with the knife firmly secured - the user is supposed to hold the sheath, keeping his/her hand well away from the glass during impact, which indeed keeps the user safer since the hand doesn't end up covered in glass.
lmf_art.jpg


If I get the chance, I'll try to make my way to the junkyard and film this sometime this month, but I no longer have the Ontario as a comparison.
By the way, the Ontario glass breaker doesn't extend as far in order to prevent the wearer from inadvertently poking himself. Gerber tries to mitigate this with the longer sheath and the retention straps.
 
Nice graphics, and thanks for the explanation. For the civilian market, I envision glass breaking feature will (hopefully) be used only to escape when trapped in an endangered vehicle (submerged, burning, door jammed, whatever). I see the advantage in holding the sheath for that, and that gives the LMF an advantage over the Ontario. I've smashed glass before with a toolbox hammer but never with either of these knives. In the trapped-in-car scenario, you really want the appropriate hammer and a dedicated seatbelt cutter. I've seen a specialized combo hammer/cutter tool for that but can't recall the brand name. Holding the LMF by the handle with bare hand as we were originally discussing, I still would expect the chance of getting the hand cut up to be high with either knife pommel design.

EMTs already have specialized equipment for breaking windows to extricate victims from vehicles.

Military market of course offers a lot more opportunity for B&E practice. And breakage generally.

Junkyard glass smashing video would be outstanding youTube material.
 
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