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Watch as a compass
- Thread starter Gunner
- Start date
Brian Jones
Moderator
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- Jan 17, 1999
- Messages
- 7,560
Geoff,
Go straight here to Greg's website for an excellent discourse on navigation, including use of a watch (with illustrations):
http://www.ssurvival.com/Pearls.htm
Scroll down to item #4 -- primitive navigation.
Best,
Brian.
Go straight here to Greg's website for an excellent discourse on navigation, including use of a watch (with illustrations):
http://www.ssurvival.com/Pearls.htm
Scroll down to item #4 -- primitive navigation.
Best,
Brian.
- Joined
- Nov 29, 1999
- Messages
- 632
Gunner, if you have any questions, after reading the article...please ask.
The watch method is located on page 133 and 134 in my book (Chapter 5 of my book covers primitive navigation along with map and compass use).
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
The watch method is located on page 133 and 134 in my book (Chapter 5 of my book covers primitive navigation along with map and compass use).
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 40
I offer the following two paragraphs, without comment, from Harold Gatty, Finding Your Way Without Map or Compass (Mineola NY: Dover Publications, 1999), ISBN 0-486-40613-X, pages 226-228. This is a reprint of Harold Gatty, Nature is Your Guide: How to Find Your Way on Land and Sea by Observing Nature, published in 1958. The whole book is filled with interesting ideas, but I offer no opinion on the following:
A method of finding the north and south points commonly used and trusted, especially by youthful explorers, but which cannot be recommended, is by means of a pocket watch. Just in case you have not heard of it, you are supposed to hold your watch horizontally, set on local time and with the hour hand turned to the sun. If you are in the Northern Hemisphere, a line midway between the hour hand and twelve is then supposedly taken as pointing south. In the Southern Hemisphere, this line is to be taken as indicating north.
It is great pity to destroy illusions, but in this case it is necessary to do so, because the apparent simplicity of the method may give a very wrong impression of its accuracy. There are times and places where such use of the watch will be reasonably correct, but there are others where serious errors will result from it. It is hard to understand how a rule which may be as much as 24 degrees in error has become so universally accepted as reliable. In latitudes between 40 degrees and 60 degrees north or south of the equator at certain times of the year, the results gotten by this method will be somewhat close to the truth. But the corrections necessary, even for these latitudes, make the method too complicated to be of any practical use. The only times when no correction is necessary are at sunrise and sunset on March 21 and September 23, and at noon on any day, at any place where the sun is directly north or south, but then only if your watch happens to be running on accurate local time. The watch method is, of course, entirely impractical anywhere near the North or South Poles, as the change in local time with distance east and west increases steadily the closer one approaches the pole.
Can anyone comment on this?
A method of finding the north and south points commonly used and trusted, especially by youthful explorers, but which cannot be recommended, is by means of a pocket watch. Just in case you have not heard of it, you are supposed to hold your watch horizontally, set on local time and with the hour hand turned to the sun. If you are in the Northern Hemisphere, a line midway between the hour hand and twelve is then supposedly taken as pointing south. In the Southern Hemisphere, this line is to be taken as indicating north.
It is great pity to destroy illusions, but in this case it is necessary to do so, because the apparent simplicity of the method may give a very wrong impression of its accuracy. There are times and places where such use of the watch will be reasonably correct, but there are others where serious errors will result from it. It is hard to understand how a rule which may be as much as 24 degrees in error has become so universally accepted as reliable. In latitudes between 40 degrees and 60 degrees north or south of the equator at certain times of the year, the results gotten by this method will be somewhat close to the truth. But the corrections necessary, even for these latitudes, make the method too complicated to be of any practical use. The only times when no correction is necessary are at sunrise and sunset on March 21 and September 23, and at noon on any day, at any place where the sun is directly north or south, but then only if your watch happens to be running on accurate local time. The watch method is, of course, entirely impractical anywhere near the North or South Poles, as the change in local time with distance east and west increases steadily the closer one approaches the pole.
Can anyone comment on this?
- Joined
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- 632
Walks Slowly,
Great post about the watch method. However, I have to disagree. A watch and sun method are used for EXTREMELY GROSS North and South headings.
In my book I write: "Using a watch is a gross method of determining the cardinal directions, but in a pinch it will suffice."
If we use the points made in your post then we should never use a stick and shadow either. A stick and shadow is a gross tool. It is only close to accurate when done between 23.4 and 66.5 degrees North and South Latitude. Pretty similar to the areas in which the watch method should be used. In addition, there are a lot of human errors in stick or rock placement (just like those of individuals watches not being exactly on time).
Between 0 and 23.4 degrees North and South Latitude, the sun may be north or south of you but you can use the created E/W line to determine N/S (you can't rely on the suns position). If north or south of 66.5 degrees the sun position on the horizon makes the method useless. This problem effects both the stick and shadow and watch methods.
A gross heading of north, south, east, or west... for a survivor is extremely important. Isn't he or she heading for something like a well traveled road, etc.? Don't these run N/S and E/W? Does there heading need to be exact to hit the road? Do I have to travel stright to it or can I approach it at a 45 degree angle. Either way I have effected my own rescue.
The biggest differnce between my openion and the openion of the author you quote is: I teach people how to use gross tools to effect their own rescue. He is teaching ideal rules of navigation. I would rather use a gross tool and effect my rescue than sit and wait and hope someone finds me.
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
[This message has been edited by Greg Davenport (edited 05 December 1999).]
Great post about the watch method. However, I have to disagree. A watch and sun method are used for EXTREMELY GROSS North and South headings.
In my book I write: "Using a watch is a gross method of determining the cardinal directions, but in a pinch it will suffice."
If we use the points made in your post then we should never use a stick and shadow either. A stick and shadow is a gross tool. It is only close to accurate when done between 23.4 and 66.5 degrees North and South Latitude. Pretty similar to the areas in which the watch method should be used. In addition, there are a lot of human errors in stick or rock placement (just like those of individuals watches not being exactly on time).
Between 0 and 23.4 degrees North and South Latitude, the sun may be north or south of you but you can use the created E/W line to determine N/S (you can't rely on the suns position). If north or south of 66.5 degrees the sun position on the horizon makes the method useless. This problem effects both the stick and shadow and watch methods.
A gross heading of north, south, east, or west... for a survivor is extremely important. Isn't he or she heading for something like a well traveled road, etc.? Don't these run N/S and E/W? Does there heading need to be exact to hit the road? Do I have to travel stright to it or can I approach it at a 45 degree angle. Either way I have effected my own rescue.
The biggest differnce between my openion and the openion of the author you quote is: I teach people how to use gross tools to effect their own rescue. He is teaching ideal rules of navigation. I would rather use a gross tool and effect my rescue than sit and wait and hope someone finds me.
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
[This message has been edited by Greg Davenport (edited 05 December 1999).]
Expand on this if you would Greg. I understand abve the 66 degree latitudes in either hemisphere, but I wish to have the above quote explained a little more.
The first mark made on the ground with the shadow stick method will always be the western most point, regardless if you're in the northern or southern hemisphere.
- Jeff
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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
[This message has been edited by JeffRandall (edited 05 December 1999).]
- Joined
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Your right Jeff. I think I need to stop posting...To many drugs.
The problem between 23.4 north and south latitude revolves around where the sticks shadow is at local apparent noon. You'd think it would be North of you when in the southern hemisphere and South of you when in the northern hemisphere. In reality it could be north or south of your position.
Thus if you are between 23.4 north and 23.4 south latitude the east/west line created by the shadow is extremely important. Once established it will provide which direction north and south are.
Thank you for pointing that out, Jeff...
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
[This message has been edited by Greg Davenport (edited 05 December 1999).]
The problem between 23.4 north and south latitude revolves around where the sticks shadow is at local apparent noon. You'd think it would be North of you when in the southern hemisphere and South of you when in the northern hemisphere. In reality it could be north or south of your position.
Thus if you are between 23.4 north and 23.4 south latitude the east/west line created by the shadow is extremely important. Once established it will provide which direction north and south are.
Thank you for pointing that out, Jeff...
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
[This message has been edited by Greg Davenport (edited 05 December 1999).]
Thanks Greg,
Anytime you use the shadow stick method it doesn't matter whether the sun is north or south of you because the first mark on the ground will always be west.
Once you make your line, if you toe the line with the first mark at your left foot, you're facing north.
Thanks for clearing that up my man - you had me questioning myself
- Jeff
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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
Anytime you use the shadow stick method it doesn't matter whether the sun is north or south of you because the first mark on the ground will always be west.
Once you make your line, if you toe the line with the first mark at your left foot, you're facing north.
Thanks for clearing that up my man - you had me questioning myself
- Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
- Joined
- Nov 29, 1999
- Messages
- 632
Hi JRF,
Lets see...where does the 26.4 number come from. Hmmmmmmm Well since I can't think of a good excuse...how does this sound....
I shouldn't be posting stuff while on all these mind altering drugs :>))))). That number has stuck with me for a long time. I know that the correct number is 23.4 and you are right in everything you said. A long time ago I learned 26.4...guess these pain pills cause me to return to old behaviors. The exact figure that should be used are
23.4 and 66.6 north and south latitude.
I really appreciate you guys calling me on these numbers. Otherwise...I'd have never gone back to look at the posts. I was so focused on the fact that survival was not an exact science that I just started pecking at the keys as fast as my mind and hands would work.
Lets have a vote. How many think I should not post any more until after the surgery and all of the narcotics are out of my system?
BTW, I have finally gotten some pain relief...it has just taken a lot of percodan to accomplish it. By this time tomorrow the nerve will no longer be smashed up against the back of my spine. Yeah.
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
Lets see...where does the 26.4 number come from. Hmmmmmmm Well since I can't think of a good excuse...how does this sound....
I shouldn't be posting stuff while on all these mind altering drugs :>))))). That number has stuck with me for a long time. I know that the correct number is 23.4 and you are right in everything you said. A long time ago I learned 26.4...guess these pain pills cause me to return to old behaviors. The exact figure that should be used are
23.4 and 66.6 north and south latitude.
I really appreciate you guys calling me on these numbers. Otherwise...I'd have never gone back to look at the posts. I was so focused on the fact that survival was not an exact science that I just started pecking at the keys as fast as my mind and hands would work.
Lets have a vote. How many think I should not post any more until after the surgery and all of the narcotics are out of my system?
BTW, I have finally gotten some pain relief...it has just taken a lot of percodan to accomplish it. By this time tomorrow the nerve will no longer be smashed up against the back of my spine. Yeah.
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
If you plan on ever having to use the watch method in the land of the midnight sun, you might consider getting a watch with a 24h hand too. But of course it won't be much use part of the year, as those places are of course also the land of the noon darkness...
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Urban Fredriksson
www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
"Smooth and serrated blades cut in two entirely different fashions."
- The Teeth of the Tyrannosaurs, Scientific American, Sep 1999
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Urban Fredriksson
www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
"Smooth and serrated blades cut in two entirely different fashions."
- The Teeth of the Tyrannosaurs, Scientific American, Sep 1999
- Joined
- Nov 29, 1999
- Messages
- 632
Jrf, You are correct. I'd did print that in my book and was upset when I found out. As I said...It is one of those things someone told me and I believed it...it got stuck in my head and it needs to get out of there. I thought it was.
All the proof reading I did and done by others and we (I take responsibility for it) missed it. It will be changed soon when we go into reprint. The error won't kill anyone because it is a higher latitude but nevertheless it is incorrect.
I never thought it would be as hard as it is to write a book....but it is a lot of work. (I'd rather be in the woods with folk like you) As I work on my second one...I think I will utilize a lot more proof readers familiar with the subject...
Thanks for the feedback.
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
All the proof reading I did and done by others and we (I take responsibility for it) missed it. It will be changed soon when we go into reprint. The error won't kill anyone because it is a higher latitude but nevertheless it is incorrect.
I never thought it would be as hard as it is to write a book....but it is a lot of work. (I'd rather be in the woods with folk like you) As I work on my second one...I think I will utilize a lot more proof readers familiar with the subject...
Thanks for the feedback.
------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?
Well, I just can´t resist to show off a little ...
On my Casio ATC-1100 I just push the bearing bottom and get a reading which is presice up to 0,5 degree. You get also an altimeter thrown into the package and a useless thermometer. All in all quite a usefull tool which I would highly recomand.
Although I have to admit that I interpreted the original post a little liberatly
Greetings
Mick
On my Casio ATC-1100 I just push the bearing bottom and get a reading which is presice up to 0,5 degree. You get also an altimeter thrown into the package and a useless thermometer. All in all quite a usefull tool which I would highly recomand.
Although I have to admit that I interpreted the original post a little liberatly
Greetings
Mick
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 4,855
Mick,
I have a similar Casio that I wear all the time. On the back it says 1470 prt-40. I guess that's the model number. Although I always take a conventional compass with me hiking, I find myself using my watch most of the time for quick bearings. The altimeter is great for finding location on trails in mountainous terrain. Just find where the trail intersects your elevation on the map. I have used the thermometer a couple of times to take temperature data. You have to take it off your wrist and allow about 20 minutes for it to reach ambient temperature. Then it works ok.
I have a similar Casio that I wear all the time. On the back it says 1470 prt-40. I guess that's the model number. Although I always take a conventional compass with me hiking, I find myself using my watch most of the time for quick bearings. The altimeter is great for finding location on trails in mountainous terrain. Just find where the trail intersects your elevation on the map. I have used the thermometer a couple of times to take temperature data. You have to take it off your wrist and allow about 20 minutes for it to reach ambient temperature. Then it works ok.