Water stones--How much water?

MTHall720

MTHall720

Joined
Sep 21, 2010
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I have DMT bench stones from Coarse to XX Fine. I was allowed to go in the kitchen at a sushi place and they showed me how they sharpen knives with water stones. The had full running water going for this. Is there any way I could just spray a mist of water and start sharpening??? I really just want a little sharper than the XX Fine I use on all my knives with the Diamond stones. I thought about a hard Arkansas but used them years ago and found it took me a long time to get an edge.
 
I think it depends on the stones, The Shaptons are just splash and go the Chosera's need to be pre soaked or that's how I understand it. There are lots of super knowledgeable people on here one will be along to set me straight and tell you what you want to know.
 
You really have to just try each stone on an individual basis to determine the level of water that makes the most sense for what you're doing with it.
 
MTHall720 said:
I have DMT bench stones from Coarse to XX Fine. I was allowed to go in the kitchen at a sushi place and they showed me how they sharpen knives with water stones. The had full running water going for this. Is there any way I could just spray a mist of water and start sharpening??? I really just want a little sharper than the XX Fine I use on all my knives with the Diamond stones. I thought about a hard Arkansas but used them years ago and found it took me a long time to get an edge.
Click to expand...
Hi,
Has your dmt xx fine been broken in?

What was a "long time" on hard arkansas, how many passes per side?
I doubt a waterstone in the range of a 10k-12k black arkansas is going to cut faster,
unless the arkansas stone needs conditioning, ultra fine stones, they're slow :)

Have you thought about strops?
 
Here is a good cross section of stones and water use with them :
From left a coarse / extra coarse dmt diamond plate used dry or with a rinse under the water tap.

Next stone is a pink aluminum oxide and or zirconium (I forget) but it is for flattening the water stones. Soak it.

Third stone is a Norton 700 water stone. Obviously it is stored submerged in clean water. The Tupperware WITH A LID prevents any algae or slime. I flatten and rinse the stone before putting back in the tub.

Red stone next to it is a King 1200. Diddo.

White stone is a Norton 4000. Same as the previous two (stored submerged in water). I liked to keep it isolated from the more coarse grits.

The green stone is a Shapton Pro 2000. Would never soak it just run it under the faucet. Use and rinse as needed. Flatten it and put it back in it's factory storage box that it is sitting on which acts as a stone holder in use (I never use it) and is a well ventilated storage box. I ALWAYS store it in the factory box. Works great.

The yellow stone is a Norton 8000 water stone (love this stone). I just run it under the water tap and use it. I never submerge it or soak it. I just store it with the other stones in a larger plastic tub, dry, with a well ventilated cover to keep dust and bugs out basically.

The last stone, very small and in front of the Green Shapton is a natural nagura stone for cleaning the finer stones. I rinse it a lot but never submerge it.

PS: I now have gone to all Shapton Pros like the Green stone and just splash and go. Except for the White 120 you can't over do it with splashing them or running them under the water tap but NEVER submerge them or leave them soaking in water. When finished using them do a light flattening or cleaning with the nagura stone and put them back in their factory boxes with adequate air circulation around them but never a breeze or sun or more than room temp heat.

I really like the older soak in a tub stones they work great. The shaptons are even better, have more consistent size grit and less of a leap between grit sizes if you are into mirror polishing the edges / bevels.

One last thought : These are old USA made Nortons. As I said the 8000 I find to be a really well made and consistent grit size stone. The New Nortons are made in Mexico or perhaps by now even some where else and the consensus was that the grit size had a lot of contaminates in it that messed up a consistent polish. I don't have any of those just have read reviews.


 
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bucketstove said:
Hi,
Has your dmt xx fine been broken in?

What was a "long time" on hard arkansas, how many passes per side?
I doubt a waterstone in the range of a 10k-12k black arkansas is going to cut faster,
unless the arkansas stone needs conditioning, ultra fine stones, they're slow :)

Have you thought about strops?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if the DMT has been truly broken in yet. I'd say I have spent up to 3 hours with them, but not all in one evening. I have cleaned them several times with bar keepers friend and warm water when they started to load up. I use them dry.
I thought about stopping but don't know much about it. I tried arkansas back in the 70's but it took several hours to make much progress.
 
MTHall720 said:
I'm not sure if the DMT has been truly broken in yet. I'd say I have spent up to 3 hours with them, but not all in one evening. I have cleaned them several times with bar keepers friend and warm water when they started to load up. I use them dry.
I thought about stopping but don't know much about it. I tried arkansas back in the 70's but it took several hours to make much progress.
Click to expand...
Hi,
yeah several hours sounds like much more than sharpening :) like a regrind
you wouldn't be doing that much work with your final stone,
as the knife would already be very sharp,
you'd only be removing the scratches from the dmt xxf
so 30 passes per side later and your polish would have increased


The basic things to know about stropping is,
- you have to use edge trailing
- higher grits without the cost of a full sized stone,
cause you're making your own from scrap wood/paper/cardboard/denim
- if using flexible/squishy stuff like leather/paper/denim
you lower the sharpening angle to compensate for the squishyness,
unless you're intentionally trying to round over the apex

- round wood for sharpening serrations :)


pictures of strop squishyness ... just remember the permanent marker trick
Stropping: angle plus pressure | BladeForums.com


lots of people own already some from of polishing compound (flitz, simichrome, Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish, blue magic ...)
so if you have some try some :)

but "hardware" store buffing compound (sears craftsman white/green) can be had for $3-4,
other hardware stores have some at $5 and it goes from there
Even ebay diamonds works and those can be had for $6 or $7 for 6/7 different high grits
LIANGYAN 10u, 7u, 5u 3.5u, 2.5u, 1.5u, 1u, 0.5u Diamond Paste, Benefits of Stropping Limited
The known good locally available compounds among others are metal polish (MetalGLO, Mothers Mag&Aluminum, Blue Magic) or Stainless Green Polishing Compounds (Enkay, Woodstock, Craftsman)
Favorite Stropping Compounds & Mediums


electron microscope pictures of stropping results
strop with some compound to a comfortable shave
dmt 325 https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/

Videos here by Michael Christy he precision strops with diamond on wood for extremely high polished edges

Also interesting to note the ebay "jade" 4inch pocket razor hone also work :) 3k & 10K Ruby/Beryl Combination Stone and can be had for about $4
 
Maybe I don't understand...

So do you now want a finer stone because you tried some and liked them?

What knives do you want this finer stone for?

What types of steels are they?
 
I really just want the blades to be sharper than they are with the xx fine DMT.
I'm sharpening both folders and fixed blades. Some of the steel types are S30V, 154 CM, 420 HC, AUS 8, Chromium something. Also I think a couple are high Carbon, and at least two of them are mysteries to me.
 
As long as you soak stones that need soaking you shouldn't need running water on any of them. Just enough water to lucubrate the surface should do. Their are stones that change how they react based on if the stone is more dry or wet and even the length of the soak. Coarser stones will generally require a longer soak than finer stones since they are more porous.
 
MTHall720 said:
I really just want the blades to be sharper than they are with the xx fine DMT.
I'm sharpening both folders and fixed blades. Some of the steel types are S30V, 154 CM, 420 HC, AUS 8, Chromium something. Also I think a couple are high Carbon, and at least two of them are mysteries to me.
Click to expand...


Do you think that maybe xx fine may be too fine for those i have noticed that with steels like s30v xx fine is terrible sharpen bassically with the coarse and maybe hit it just a couple strokes on the fine at the end . At least thats my expierence. The more fine edges dont work well for me and most of the steels i use. Check into it and see what you think. Experiment with sharpening and not going very far past the coarse stage.
 
MTHall720 said:
I have DMT bench stones from Coarse to XX Fine. I was allowed to go in the kitchen at a sushi place and they showed me how they sharpen knives with water stones. The had full running water going for this. Is there any way I could just spray a mist of water and start sharpening??? I really just want a little sharper than the XX Fine I use on all my knives with the Diamond stones. I thought about a hard Arkansas but used them years ago and found it took me a long time to get an edge.
Click to expand...

I'd consider a strop of some sort or more time on the DMTs unless yu just want to try waterstones for the sake of it.

Most quality brands of fine polishing grade waterstone 6-8k are going to be faster than DMTs or Arkansas on most steels - might struggle a bit on the s30v and 154cm depending on brand. In terms of finish though, the EEF DMT is going to be right up there with most 6-8k stones and will work on high carbide steels better than many waterstones.

Per the other responses, all waterstones are a little different. I don't keep water running on any of them, I keep a dunk bucket nearby and as they load up or become too muddy I rub the surface with my fingers and dunk it, or I slowly pour a cup of water on the surface.

A softer waterstone will benefit more from a constant stream of water, but I'm not convinced its necessary. Might just be the way they were taught. The folks at Korin don't use a constant flush either.
 
MTHall720 said:
I really just want the blades to be sharper than they are with the xx fine DMT.
I'm sharpening both folders and fixed blades. Some of the steel types are S30V, 154 CM, 420 HC, AUS 8, Chromium something. Also I think a couple are high Carbon, and at least two of them are mysteries to me.
Click to expand...
Hi,
How sharp are your blades off the xxfine dmt?
Push cut newspaper? phonebook? Whittle beard hair? Head hair?
 
DMTs are great for all kinds of steels; I clean mine with BreakFree when they load up -- let them sit overnight then wipe off. I use an ancient Black Arkansas stone inherited from a great uncle to put a finishing edge on my high carbon steel blades, but it doesn't work so well on current super steels with high vanadium content (S30V, etc.). It does do a nice job on 420HC. I have no problem getting a hair splitting edge with DMT ultra fine hone; stropping with chromium oxide compound helps take off any lingering microscopic burr.
 
MTHall720 said:
Sometimes barely cut paper with a couple of my thicker blades but usually cutting paper is about it.
Click to expand...
Hi,
Cut as in slice/saw?
Can you describe your sharpening procedure in detail?
Do you raise a burr? Do you double angle deburr?
Maybe all you need is a slight/small adjustment in how you sharpen
 
bucketstove said:
Hi,
Cut as in slice/saw?
Can you describe your sharpening procedure in detail?
Do you raise a burr? Do you double angle deburr?
Maybe all you need is a slight/small adjustment in how you sharpen
Click to expand...
I do raise a bur, sharpen at about 20 degrees but not as consistently as I would like, but no double angle. Slices through paper cleanly except for some real thick blades.
 
MTHall720 said:
I do raise a bur, sharpen at about 20 degrees but not as consistently as I would like, but no double angle. Slices through paper cleanly except for some real thick blades.
Click to expand...
Hi,
Lower angles (like 10dps :) can help with consistency ...
as can sharpening aids (angle wedge on stone or stone tilted at angle)

How do you get rid of the burr?

Try double angle deburr next time,
I raise huge burrs,
sometimes I have to do 20 pps at double angle to deburr ...

Why? 90 degree push cut paper off norton india fine at ~P400 /35micron
 
Thanks for the excellent advice. So far I have don't much besides running the blade over leather for deburring. 10 angle would be easier for consistency I think. I have tried a couple of guided systems in the past.
 
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