Waterstone progression from 1k to 12k

[TigFur]

Hi,
Im thinking of upgraing my waterstones.
I have a 1000/6000 stone that by looks and descriptions might be the king stone.
I also have a rough cheap stone to create bevels, this stone is going to die soon.

1) I am thinking of purchasing either the cerax 320 or chosera 400 to replace the rough one
2) as a finisher i decided to add the naniwa super stone 12000 as it has good reputation.
3) the king(?) 6000 side seems not to be able to remove scratches of its 1000 side on harder blades (like my razor) on softer blades it works but takes a while, it is a fairly big jump too. Also it loads up quickly.
So here are my questions:
- What would be the best single stone to close the gap between the 1k and 12k effectively? i would like to have a perfect mirror with as little steps/time/money as possible.

- if not a single stone, what progression would you choose? Should i leave the 6000 king out and replace it or just add something in between

There is a chance that i will replace the 1000 gritt with something later as well (maybe chosera 800)

Here is a list of stones that i have my eye on due to their feel and feedback.

chosera 3000
suehiro rika 5000
kitayama 8000

Feel free to suggest more.

Right now after the 6k i finísh with various stropping pastes. It works but takes too long.

 

[Jason B.]

Are you sharpening straight razors? If No, then a 12k stone is going to be a waste of money and especially a waste of time on knives. Been there... Learned my lesson.

How sharp is your 1k edge? Easily slices paper? Easily shaves arm hair? This is an important stage in edge development.

Next, I would recommend sticking with a single brand if you want consistency. Mixing and matching can work but unless you have money to blow I wouldn't. For consistency and their ability to polish I would recommend the Shapton Glass in 1k, 3k, 6k, 8k. This would give you all the grits needed in a set of stones known for fast cutting and good polishing abilities. In my own experience they produce the sharpest edges of most any waterstone available, especially in the fine grits. I suspect this is for folding knives too in which case I would pretty much only recommend the Shapton's. I've sharpened a lot of knives with a lot of different waterstones and I can confidently say the Shapton Glass are the best for folders.

 

[maximus83]

Are you sharpening straight razors? If No, then a 12k stone is going to be a waste of money and especially a waste of time on knives. Been there... Learned my lesson.

^This. OP, an interesting test is to define a level of sharpness you want, then see what is the coarsest, most minimal progression of sharpening that can get you there. Then from there, test the resulting edge and see how durable and performant it is. Then if needed, add back grits to your progression and see what impact those have on edge durability and performance.

This is not a water stones example, but is around the issue of coarseness. I had a new Kershaw Dividend folder in M390 that I wanted to get to a level of sharpness that, according to the sharpness chart in the forum sticky, is 'shaving sharp' somewhere around 0.3 micron or better. Plenty for an EDU folder.

This progression got it there, it was filleting printer paper and push-cutting Rizla green lengthwise:

• DMT coarse (325): reprofile edge to 12 dps, apex and reduce burr
• 1 micron CBN compound on hard-backed linen: strop 10 laps
• Clean leather on hard backing: strop 10 laps

Had planned to run the progression--DMT C > DMT EF > DMT EEF > strop. But this thin blade was doing so well after the work on the coarse stone, it really didn't need more.

I'm finding more of my user knives--EDU folders, kitchen knives, fixed blades--don't need as high grits to finish as I once thought they did. The extra refinement does add some value, but it's not much, and for most of these knives the way I use them, it's not worth it. A lot of my knives can be finished on a medium grit around 300/400 then stropped, or in a few cases, the blades seem to benefit from another step or two higher, say 1K/6K (which I do with some kitchen knives) or 1.2K/8K some super steels.

 

[Wowbagger]

When I was mixing stone brands I was able to find useful stones that worked well together.
In the photo these are a little out of order but I went from the red brown 1200 or maybe it is a 1000 King to the green shapton 2000 then the white 4000 Norton and then the Yellow 8,000 Norton.

Going from 1,000 to 12,000 (or what ever you decide to sub for the over kill 12,000) that is a little hard to do in one stone step. It can be done if you are willing to sharpen shallow on the 1,000 then go a few degrees steeper and keep the micro bevel narrow then go to the finest stone. This works because there is so little area to abrade and the force per square inch is quite high even when you do not press down very firmly at all. You will have to cut the bevel back when you sharpen the next time using the 1,000 to get the micro bevel back down in width to the least hair width you can otherwise you will be fighting the problem of too much surface area to polish quickly.

I don't like to do that, I like a nice pretty wide bevel to look at. Also I don't have to keep track of as many angles. With much bevel width, even a millimeter it takes a lot more time to work that much area enough to remove the scratches from the 1,000 stone not to mention more downward force.

You can see the results of a nice progression of a couple three stones after the 1,000.
That's a pleasing and effective way to go. Your choice.

 

[Wowbagger]

I suspect this is for folding knives too in which case I would pretty much only recommend the Shapton's. I've sharpened a lot of knives with a lot of different waterstones and I can confidently say the Shapton Glass are the best for folders.

I can second the Shaptons. Serious bucks though.
I went with the Shapton Pros before I got into super steels.
Can't beat a nice set of stones that are designed and engineered to work together for the types of alloys you like to use. I'm not saying don't get the Glass they are truly great. The Pros are prettier though.

Yes the green one is the same as in the old line up, I kept it and added a nice range of it's brother's and sisters. I can recommend a nice 120 Shapton (a white stone not in this photo) to round out the group.
The white stone shown here is a 15,000 for when I'm feeling frivolous.

 

[TigFur]

Allright, so far i agree with you on most of your statements.

I do plan on using the stones for my razors, cheap and middle class kitchen and pocket knives, i have an M390 lionsteel that i want to regrind and if i like the results some higher end knives of my friends will be next.

I have been able to do shaving sharp edges on my roughest stones (right now that is the 1K as the rougher one is SO BAD i wouldnt dare using it to make finished edge )
I have learned a lot on my fake edge pro about the fact that a fine edge can be only sharp if the previous gritts were also sharp. I like the motto "try to make the sharpest edge on every single stone" that sentence really changed my perspective back then.
I shave with my razor stropping it on compound after the 6000 stone, it gets fairly mirrored and shaves smoothly but i cant remove some of the scratches and that bothers my eyes.
I do not plan to make micro bevels of any sort so that solution doesnt do it.

I am able to get a mirror edge similar to what Wowbagger has shown (BTW very nice!) but it takes me about 1-2 hours on a soft knife (going from the 1000 to the 6000 and taking a long time and stropping with many compounds after) and on my lionsteel M4 M390 it took me about 5. (on the edge pro going slow steps up to 3000 and then using polishing sand paper and pastes)
I would not be able to close the gap on a hard steel on my stones right now. At least not in any reasonable time...

So my goal here is to get basically the same or better results but cut time by grinding on stones which is much faster and more comfortable for me.
I enjoy a mirror edge but hate when there are scratches left from the lower gritts and so i need to do the necessary changes to my stone progression which is obviously lacking. (i want the edge to be spotless after im finished with it, the fact that there are scratches right after first use does not bother me at all)

I do not agree that there is no difference in sharpness with higher gritts - It IS a pretty useless difference in real world though.
I feel the edge getting sharper with each following gritt, but it goes something like:
arm hair flies away on touch -> arm hair flies away on touch with less resistance -> arm hair gets cut lengthwise -> arm hair gets cut lengthwise with less resistance...
Unless its a super steel knife this difference is gone in the first minute of cutting wood.

So basically its mostly for estetic purposes and knowing that i did my best.
On razors of course this makes much more sense...

Back to the stones, from what you all mentioned it is obviously that you progress much slower, Wowbagger has a nice doubling progression, which i would say is an ideal thing.
I dont want to get an entire new row of stones, id like to use what i have as long as i can. I dont mind mixing stones up as ive been doing so quite a while (just with very cheap stones).
I like the 1000/6000 stone, except that its slow on harder steels. The naniwa 12000 i decided on because its the best polish i found, and also a doubled step up from the 6000.

So given your progressions i think the best would be to get a fast cutting 3000 and having an almost doubled progression of 0.5k 1k 3k 6k 12k, perhaps eventually upgrading the 6K. (i could also try a 2K to double from the 1K, but then i would have to remove that with the 6K which might be just as hard as before)
My original idea of only replacing the 6K with some faster cutting better 6K and leaving the 1k-6k gap might be too problematic afterall.

The shaptons dont really talk to me, i am not sure. I just cant imagine to have this nice and smooth waterstone feeling on something thats 5mm thick and so hard it doesnt dish.
The Chosera 3000 is one of the most expensive stones i know, so thats something to consider... Looks like my wallet is screwed either way.

 

[willc]

Lately I have been finishing with the Rika 5k and very happy with the results.
It probably isn’t quite a 5k finish but the feel of the stone and the way it grinds metal is excellent.

The highest Chosera stone I have is 1K but I mostly hear good things about the 3k.

I can get very good edges off my old SiC stones that will shave hair but it is fun seeing how far an edge can be taken.
My 12” Tramontina machete has an edge bevel about 9 degrees and a 2k green brick finish.
Surprisingly it holds up very well for such a steep bevel, it isn’t the optimal edge for the tool but it is fun.

 

[TigFur]

Lately I have been finishing with the Rika 5k and very happy with the results.
It probably isn’t quite a 5k finish but the feel of the stone and the way it grinds metal is excellent.

The highest Chosera stone I have is 1K but I mostly hear good things about the 3k.

I can get very good edges off my old SiC stones that will shave hair but it is fun seeing how far an edge can be taken.
My 12” Tramontina machete has an edge bevel about 9 degrees and a 2k green brick finish.
Surprisingly it holds up very well for such a steep bevel, it isn’t the optimal edge for the tool but it is fun.

Thanks for the feedback on the Rika 5K, that and the good things heard about the chosera are the reasons im interested in them.

In my experience a steeper bevel doesnt hold up any less than the original one. In fact the edge retention seems to increase imo.
It might be prone to edge chipping and such with harder use but thats not that often the case and i have been much happier with my knives with lower angles.

I feel like companies try to make their knives "tougher" by making large angles and descrease the ability to cut. I think the lower angles cut with less resistance and that results in better edge retention. It is just my feeling though. (a knife that did not hold an edge after a single paper slice surprised me - after i reground it, it had no problems holding its edge even after two hours of carving wood. I think it was made of 420c or similar.

 

[Jason B.]

6k-12k is way too big of a jump so, if you must have the 12k I recommend also getting the 8k kitayama to follow the 6k and before the 12k. Below the 6k I would recommend the Naniwa 2k Aotoshi. These stones combined will give you a near perfect polish on everything but high alloy steels like M390 which require diamond abrasive from start to finish.

 

[microtech85]

^This. OP, an interesting test is to define a level of sharpness you want, then see what is the coarsest, most minimal progression of sharpening that can get you there. Then from there, test the resulting edge and see how durable and performant it is. Then if needed, add back grits to your progression and see what impact those have on edge durability and performance.

This is not a water stones example, but is around the issue of coarseness. I had a new Kershaw Dividend folder in M390 that I wanted to get to a level of sharpness that, according to the sharpness chart in the forum sticky, is 'shaving sharp' somewhere around 0.3 micron or better. Plenty for an EDU folder.

This progression got it there, it was filleting printer paper and push-cutting Rizla green lengthwise:

• DMT coarse (325): reprofile edge to 12 dps, apex and reduce burr
• 1 micron CBN compound on hard-backed linen: strop 10 laps
• Clean leather on hard backing: strop 10 laps

Had planned to run the progression--DMT C > DMT EF > DMT EEF > strop. But this thin blade was doing so well after the work on the coarse stone, it really didn't need more.

I'm finding more of my user knives--EDU folders, kitchen knives, fixed blades--don't need as high grits to finish as I once thought they did. The extra refinement does add some value, but it's not much, and for most of these knives the way I use them, it's not worth it. A lot of my knives can be finished on a medium grit around 300/400 then stropped, or in a few cases, the blades seem to benefit from another step or two higher, say 1K/6K (which I do with some kitchen knives) or 1.2K/8K some super steels.

Im with you. I strongly believe in diminishing returns with regard to sharpening with high grits. I can touch up my m390 or 20cv on dmt extra fine or spyderco medium to hair popping sharp within 2 min. I can then spend another 5 to 10 min to get hair whittling sharp edge that will last for 1 or 2 cuts through cardboard. So is spending 5 times longer for an edge that will last for a couple cuts worth it? Not for me. Plus think their is an intersecting level of sharpness where sharpness and aggressiveness meet. Less time wont be as sharp but higher grits will get sharper as you gradually lose bite. Its like those supply and demand charts from economics class. There seems to be a happy equalibrium.

 

[maximus83]

Im with you. I strongly believe in diminishing returns with regard to sharpening with high grits. I can touch up my m390 or 20cv on dmt extra fine or spyderco medium to hair popping sharp within 2 min. I can then spend another 5 to 10 min to get hair whittling sharp edge that will last for 1 or 2 cuts through cardboard. So is spending 5 times longer for an edge that will last for a couple cuts worth it? Not for me. Plus think their is an intersecting level of sharpness where sharpness and aggressiveness meet. Less time wont be as sharp but higher grits will get sharper as you gradually lose bite. Its like those supply and demand charts from economics class. There seems to be a happy equalibrium.

Yep, the analogy to supply-demand curves from econ is a good one. There are range of attributes you can aim for in sharpening, and there's also your time and expertise, the cost of materials to sharpen, etc. etc. You make a cost-benefit calculation every time you sharpen and make your progression more complicated: Is this worth it? And there's no one answer to that question. It's more like, it depends, what do you want to accomplish, and how much are you willing to invest. Sometimes, I totally get the impulse to do something like Michael Christy does in his videos, like a little science project--how far can I take this?--and just keep going with higher progressions. This is interesting because it's fun, it can get you amazing pretty edges, and sometimes you learn useful things along the way. Also, there are certain knife and tool applications where that super refined edge is useful, so you run the progression. But in my case, probably a majority of my blades are just EDU types of tasks, folders, kitchen knives, fixed blades for utility and outdoor tasks. Most of these if not damaged or needing a reprofile, I can get 'sharp enough for the tasks at hand' with 1 or at most 2 grits, and if needed, a strop to finish. Increasingly, if I do a good job deburring on the stones, I don't even find the strop all that necessary.

 

[TigFur]

I can then spend another 5 to 10 min to get hair whittling sharp edge that will last for 1 or 2 cuts through cardboard

And now see me trying to get this last drop of an edge for one hour, just to see it gone in a few seconds. And i do it anyway!

I can get 'sharp enough for the tasks at hand' with 1 or at most 2 grits, and if needed, a strop to finish

For everyday use i agree. Here i really like the tiny 2" by 1/2" jade stones that cost 1,5$ from china and can restore a shaving edge in 30 seconds on any steel.
But sometimes you just want to go overboard and sharpen the knife to its limits, even if it has no real advantage.

6k-12k is way too big of a jump so, if you must have the 12k I recommend also getting the 8k kitayama to follow the 6k and before the 12k. Below the 6k I would recommend the Naniwa 2k Aotoshi

Sure why not buy every stone mentioned in this thread!
Why do you think it is a too big jump? I thought doubling gritts would work well, or are the grits scaled logaritmically?
Same with the 2000#, just like the chosera 3000#, one hears only great stuff about it However ,i feel that a high quality 3000# should be able to deal with 1000# scratches much better than a low quality 6000# will deal with 2000# scratches... Id love to hear some more thoughts on that.

 

[Jason B.]

Stones and grits don't always match up like you would think. Even the binder has an effect on how the stone feels and works.

The 6k-12k jump is too large because when you evaluate the micron size of the abrasive you are not doubling like you think.

The first set I recommended is one of the best from the standpoint of ability to grind a wide range of alloys that most waterstones can't, and their great polishing ability which was a key point in your requirements. The second set I recommended was based on your want to still incorporate your other King stones. The second set is different because they are all like stones and will flow together nicely in a progression. They have similar feel and feedback to the Kings so you won't be bouncing from soft to hard stones which can and will cause faults in your sharpening.

I have also used all but maybe one stone mentioned in this thread and on thousands of knives so I'm not just making blind recommendation.

 

[ejames13]

^This. OP, an interesting test is to define a level of sharpness you want, then see what is the coarsest, most minimal progression of sharpening that can get you there. Then from there, test the resulting edge and see how durable and performant it is. Then if needed, add back grits to your progression and see what impact those have on edge durability and performance.

This is not a water stones example, but is around the issue of coarseness. I had a new Kershaw Dividend folder in M390 that I wanted to get to a level of sharpness that, according to the sharpness chart in the forum sticky, is 'shaving sharp' somewhere around 0.3 micron or better. Plenty for an EDU folder.

This progression got it there, it was filleting printer paper and push-cutting Rizla green lengthwise:

• DMT coarse (325): reprofile edge to 12 dps, apex and reduce burr
• 1 micron CBN compound on hard-backed linen: strop 10 laps
• Clean leather on hard backing: strop 10 laps

Had planned to run the progression--DMT C > DMT EF > DMT EEF > strop. But this thin blade was doing so well after the work on the coarse stone, it really didn't need more.

I'm finding more of my user knives--EDU folders, kitchen knives, fixed blades--don't need as high grits to finish as I once thought they did. The extra refinement does add some value, but it's not much, and for most of these knives the way I use them, it's not worth it. A lot of my knives can be finished on a medium grit around 300/400 then stropped, or in a few cases, the blades seem to benefit from another step or two higher, say 1K/6K (which I do with some kitchen knives) or 1.2K/8K some super steels.

Have you used the Sharpmaker diamond rods? If so, how would you compare the finish left by those versus the finish left by the DMT coarse?

 

[maximus83]

Yes I've used Sharpmaker and the diamond rods quite a bit. On paper they are supposed to be about 400 mesh, the DMT coarse about 325. I have not done a side-by-side to visually compare the finished edge of each, but I'd guess it should be quite close and in theory, slightly finer with the SM diamonds. That said, this comparison probably involves more than just what mesh value is on each of them. The wildcard factor is the jig-type sharpening system in the SM where you have limited contact area on the stone and limited pressure you can apply to it. Another variable is the pattern of the diamonds as they are embedded on the stone. These things--the surface area, the mesh value, the amount of pressure you use, and the embedding pattern of the diamonds--can all impact the resulting edge finish.

 

[TigFur]

The 6k-12k jump is too large because when you evaluate the micron size of the abrasive you are not doubling like you think.

The first set I recommended is one of the best from the standpoint of ability to grind a wide range of alloys that most waterstones can't, and their great polishing ability which was a key point in your requirements. The second set I recommended was based on your want to still incorporate your other King stones. The second set is different because they are all like stones and will flow together nicely in a progression. They have similar feel and feedback to the Kings so you won't be bouncing from soft to hard stones which can and will cause faults in your sharpening.

I always thought that comparings microns to microns one can create a progression. Comparing stone gritts to stone gritts ahouls also work and the problems only arrise when comparing gritts to microns. Guess i was wrong.

Just to clear it up, first suggestion is the set of shapton glass, second suggestion is king 1k, naniwa 2k. king 6k, kitayama 8k, naniwa 12k?

The second set sounds similar to what i ask for.
The aotoshi 2k is not chosera/proffesional? is it a different stone?
Is it very different from the 3K chosera as far as feeling and scratch pattern goes?
It costs about half of the 3K.
Thanks for your suggestions

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Grit chart: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-grand-unified-grit-chart.856708/
Jason knows his stuff to say the least. Watch his videos, you’ll see. I’m guessing what he showed is only 10% of what he has learned and gone through.

I always thought that comparings microns to microns one can create a progression. Comparing stone gritts to stone gritts ahouls also work and the problems only arrise when comparing gritts to microns. Guess i was wrong.

Just to clear it up, first suggestion is the set of shapton glass, second suggestion is king 1k, naniwa 2k. king 6k, kitayama 8k, naniwa 12k?

The second set sounds similar to what i ask for.
The aotoshi 2k is not chosera/proffesional? is it a different stone?
Is it very different from the 3K chosera as far as feeling and scratch pattern goes?
It costs about half of the 3K.
Thanks for your suggestions

 

[Jason B.]

I always thought that comparings microns to microns one can create a progression. Comparing stone gritts to stone gritts ahouls also work and the problems only arrise when comparing gritts to microns. Guess i was wrong.

Just to clear it up, first suggestion is the set of shapton glass, second suggestion is king 1k, naniwa 2k. king 6k, kitayama 8k, naniwa 12k? Yes

The second set sounds similar to what i ask for.
The aotoshi 2k is not chosera/proffesional? is it a different stone? The Cho/Pro line is different, the Aotoshi is a single offering from Naniwa but a very good one
Is it very different from the 3K chosera as far as feeling and scratch pattern goes? Yes, the 2k is soft more like a king and the Chosera is very hard like a Shapton.
It costs about half of the 3K.
Thanks for your suggestions

Answers in bold text.

 

[TigFur]

Thanks for clearing it up for me. I haven't considered the 2K, it seems to be a worthy canditate.

As for the gritt chart:
chosera 800 = 14 micron
Chosera 2000 = 6,7 micron / about twice as much of the 800 - as one would expect
chosera 3000 = 4 / 3,5 times the 800, close to what i would expect
Im not sure what the king gritt is like but the 6000 gritts average at about 2,25 micron - three times the 2000 and about 1,5 as much as the 3000...
the shapton 16000 is 0,92 micron-...
i dont see any big jumps or surprises here

 

[Jason B.]

There is more to it than just numbers. How the stones interact in a progression is critical to the end result. Stone hardness, binder, abrasive type and abrasive release rate all play a part in how waterstones work. You can pick stones randomly but I would not recommend it.