Waterstone questions

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wetdog1911

Joined
Sep 29, 2002
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I figured this should be a new thread and not tacked on to the Waterstone/Arkansas thread.

Grit ... I know the grits on the WS don't really relate to Western grit #'s, so I'll put it this way. I like the micro serrations in my edges for slicing. I have used 2000+ grit sandpaper before. Makes the edge like a mirror, but won't slice for squat. I now generally use 320 and perhaps finish up on 600.

Would I be looking at a med wet stone? The blue stones mentioned (Aoto and man-made) look very nice and I'm leaning in that direction, but would they be right for me? Hidego says the natural is a 2-3000 grit and the man made blue is a 1000/3000 grit combo. Too fine? Too coarse? Just right???

Except for a Sebbie and a couple customs all my knives are either Busse or Swamp Rat. I want a good working edge that is still shaving sharp. I know the edge doesn't have to be highly polished for this. Some of my Busse's and Rats looked like they were done on a 80 grit belt from the grind marks in the edge, but would shave with no effort. Also, most are convex grind.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also any links. My search function won't work and I can't even Google anymore. 5 yr old Mac and 5 yr old AOL. No upgrades till I get the new OS X. :-((((

Thanks for all the help.

Rob
 
microns 20 = US grit 600 = Japanese grit 1000.
Mic. 10 = us 1000 = Jap, 2000
Mic. 3 = US 2000 = Jap 4000
Mic35 = US 320 = Jap 500
Hope that helps
 
I should be getting my 1000 grit shapton in next week. Will see how fast it cuts and what kind of finish it leaves on the edge. If you want a nice toothy edge I'm guessing that you won't want to go any finer than the 3000 grit stones. My 6000 grit polish stone when freshly lapped will leave a very fine finish, but it still has a bit of bite to it(reminds me of my 1200 grit DMT when it was new). Let a slurry build though and the edge just gets really polished, without much slicing ability.

It's surprising sometimes just how coarse a grit can be while still getting a very fine edge. One of my best edges was a fluke of sorts, sharpened a cold steel twistmaster on an somewhat worn 120 grit belt, it looked alot like the Busse edges, but with a very pronounced mini(I dare not call them micro, you could see them clearly with the naked eye :eek:) serrations A couple passes on a strop and it was scarin the hairs off my arm, and was like a lightsaber on fiberous stuff. It seemed to be fairly durable, but I've not been able to duplicate that edge on a belt since then.
 
db

Thanks for the grit conversions.

Yoda

LOL Looks like you found the magic angle ... once. Coarse grits can give you shaving sharp edges. I've seen it. Damned if I can repeat it though!

Those blue stones are looking better and better. Sounds like they would do the trick as long as I keep the slurrey down.

Now, man made or natural? Both cost essentially the same and are very close to the same size. I'm just wondering if the man made would be a bit more consistant? Seems like it would be.

I'm sure others who use them will chime in before very long.

Rob
 
There are great differences between different brands and families of waterstones. For example my 1000-grit King waterstones seems finer than my 1000-grit Shapton Professional, which seems significantly finer than my 4000 grit Norton. I was particularly surprised by the Norton. I even wonder if it is mislabled. It is part of a 4000/8000 grit double sided combo hone. The 8000 grit seems coarser than my 6000 grit King hone, but not by much.

If you like a toothy edge I would try something like a 1000 grit Shapton Professional.
 
Jeff it does sound like you may have the 1000/4000 combo Norton instead of the 4000/8000. If so how would you compare it to the Shapton 1000? I'm very tempted at getting the Shapton even though I am very happy with what I already have. I'm not really sure what the Ark, stone is grit wise that I finish on right now, I'd guess it's somplace between the Spyderco mediun and fine.
 
My Norton hone was clearly labeled on the box and stenciled on the sides of the stones as a 4000/8000. Whether it is a 4000 or a 1000, I wouldn't use it for finish honing. It is just a bit too coarse. The "8000" grit is probably a lot finer than you would like if you want some slicing ability.

My King 1000/6000 hone is probably a shade too fine for you. The 1000 grit gives a good edge, but without appreciable toothiness. The 6000 grit works for honing a straight razor.

Be that as it may, I think that the Shapton Professional 1000 grit is a good choice for a slightly toothy edge. It cuts fast and you don't have to presoak it in water before use. You may not get a shaving edge with this unless you play around with how much slurry you allow to build up on the stone. If you have a strop loaded with some something like green buffing compound you can convert the edge to a shaving edge.

I like the water hones since they cut fast. If you like a somewhat toothy edge and you don't care as much about speed you could try a medium fine India oil stone from Norton less money.
 
Not haveing to presoak is one of the main reasons I've been tempted so much. Thanks for the info on your stones, and results.
 
Jeff

Thanks for the info. Seems I have a bit more research to do, especially if one makers 4000 grit stone is coarser than anothers 1000.

Strops are no problem as I have several. Some loaded and an old horsehide barbers strop. Also have a good variety of compounds from HandAmerica.

I'll be checking out the Shapton Pro 1000 too.

Rob
 
The Norton's I've heard aren't really comperable in their grit rating with the japanese made stones, they only "recently" introduced that line, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone screwed up and marked the stones wrong or if the formulation needed tweaking. Everyone seems to consider the 1000 grit a necessary foundation stone though. I'd start with a 1000 grit king as they're pretty cheap, easy to flatten, and will help teach you good habits when working with waterstones, such as not raising the bevel too high and using too much pressure, thus gouging the surface. I did that on my King polish stone about half a dozen times the first week I had it, the gouges were shallow though, and came out with just a quick lapping (used a broken part of a cheap soft arkansas stone I had)
 
To add my $0.02:
Personally I am very impressed by the Bester Stones. They are cheap in comparison with the Shaptons and cut much faster than the King stones and stay much longer flat as well. The draw back is, that I haven't seen them in grits higher than #1200. Also, they are very hard, so I guess, when it comes to the polishing stones, which are all made to have a similar feel that natural stones have (very soft), they don't stack up to well. But to rough in a blade with little effort while leaving a decently fine finish, they are really great.

As to leaving an edge with some bit to it, I don't think I would go much above #1000, maybe #1200 or #1500. #2000 at the utmost, after that you get into the polishing stones. The man-made blue could leave a toothy finish if you are very diligent to remove the slurry or keep it under running water, but really what they excel in are high cutting speed while having a *fine* finish and good feel, with the drawback of easily gauging and quick dishing (I am not too concernt about the wear simply because you have so much stone to wear). If you spend a lot of time on a non-paraille blue and let the slurry build up, the edge will finish with something approaching a mirror finish (not true mirror like an 6000-15000 produces, but definitely a "reflecting" edge).
 
Oh, I forgot to mention: There is one thing I do NOT like about blue stones. You can not see the amount of metal you have removed on the stone (the traces if you will so). The stone is too darkly colored. I really like lightly colored stones, were you can see were you have been with the knife on the stone.

You can always call up hidatool and ask them for their opinion. They are japanese woodworkers and know their stones. They can explain the differences between the stones, but they will do so from a traditional point of view. To them feel, finish, cutting speed will matter much more than ease of use or low maintanance.
 
Just got my Shapton in today, and if my first impressions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339649 are anything to go by HoB is spot on if you want some real bite to the edge. I've still got some time before I really get used to the way the stone cuts, so it may be possible to get some real nice microserrations depending on steel/technique. My 6000 grit polish stone leaves a much finer finish, and if I have it freshly lapped it leaves more bite to the edge even though the grit is much finer. I can't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to get nice teeth on the 1000 stone.
 
HoB said:
To add my $0.02:
Personally I am very impressed by the Bester Stones. They are cheap in comparison with the Shaptons and cut much faster than the King stones and stay much longer flat as well.
Click to expand...

Hm, I thought about trying one of those. Any idea how they would compare to the Dragon or Debado stones?
 
I was very impressed with yoda's review of the Shapton 1000 and I'm very seriously considering it.

But, what I think what I'm going to do for the moment though is get the small Natural Blue stone from Hidatool that is only ~$18 or so for 2 reasons.

One, is the cost. The stones I'm considering are both a bit above or below $60 + shipping. I can get this one for about $25 total.

Second, the grit. The Blue may be just what I'm looking for. It may be too fine. If it is too fine, I'll get the Shapton later. No problem, I do like a polished edge on my Sebbie and a couple of other smaller knives, so the stone will see use no matter what. If it is just right I'll get a larger one for my big blades that I like a little toothy.

Seems like the cheapest way to see where I want to go with this, with quality stones at least.

Rob
 
I always advocate getting a longer hone. The way I see it you can't effectively use the last inch of hone on both ends so a 4.5 inch hone only has 2.5 inches of usable surface. The blue hone you are talking about is only 4.5 inches long. I would go for a 1000 grit King Brand water stone from hidatool instead. They sell that one for only $21.00 and it is 8 inches long (so it provides more like 6 inches of useable surface by my calculations, for almost 2.5x more useable surface). The 1000 grit King will produce a somewhat finer edge than the 1000 grit Shapton, but it will still leave you with some tooth.
http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/stone/medium.html
 
Even though I understand your concerns about the price, these stones cost you an arm and a leg, I must say that I have to agree with Jeff. I think a stone should be at least 6 in long.

Jeff, have you had a chance of watching the Shapton sharpening video? Except for the final passes, it shows how you can use the entire surface of a stone. I quite like the video (even if it is for chisels).
 
I went to a Shapton demonstration at a timber framing convention and watched them do it first hand. That is where I got my 1000 grit hone. The techniques of honing a chisel grind or a scandinavian grind blade are different from honing most other knife blades. While you can use most of the hone while you do major bevel work (such as on a chisel flat or reprofiling) you do better avoiding the ends of the surface if you are honing alternating sides of the blade. This is the most critical step of finishing a knife edge and the step that is easiest to mess up when you use too short a hone. For that reason I still want a long waterstone.
 
Jeff and HoB

Good point about the length. That would be wasted money if you tried to save some and ended up with a too short stone.

yuzuha

Thanks for the link. Didn't know of it and now I have some reading to do.

Rob
 
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