Waterstones exclusives?

williamsld8

williamsld8

Joined
Sep 19, 2010
Messages
226
I have never used a waterstone in my life. I grew up with oil stones, not too much caring for SiC stones, never experiencing AO stones, but having a wide variety of arkansas stones. And of course the past year or two I have been using diamond pretty much exclusively.

After seeing some footage and doing some reading, I have become interested in ancient cultures of Japan, Korea, China, and other countries of the orient. The results that the samurai achieved, and with the continued popularity of them, this has led me to a curiosity regarding waterstones.

My question is is there anybody here who uses waterstones exclusively? And if so what kind of results/experiences do you get?

I have been reading some say waterstone grits under the fine grits and polishing grits are junk, and this discourages me, as I like a media that performs well from the coarsest to the finest grit possible. I have also read that modern steels and waterstones don't mix well. If this is also true, I guess it will seal the deal and I will continue passing over waterstones. Thank you for your time.
 
I use them almost exclusively - I still use SiC and AlumOx whetstones when its more convenient. Also, I have Norton waterstones and Kings. The Kings do have issues with the newer wear resistant and PM steels. I've used them with excellent results on VG1, VG10, 154cm, Sandvic, Aus6 & 8, 440C, and a host of carbon steels. The Nortons handle tougher steels with no issues but do not break down into a finer polishing mud as nicely so I don't use them as often. The lower grit stones (220) are generally very "soft" and shed a ton of abrasive as they go. This does slow them down, but it also makes it much easier to follow up with finer grit stones and have few if any deep scratches to remove, so good and bad depending on your POV. The mid range stones (800-1200) are capable of extremely nice edges by themselves, not sure where you heard they were junk.

There are plenty of better quality manufacturers out there making stones that will handle the toughest steels and in all reality cost no more than some quality DMTs. If I find myself moving toward steels that need better stones, then I'll buy them - for now my cheapo Kings make some scary sharp edges.

As for my results in general - I get excellent results and in far less time than it takes even using diamond plates. Hair popping, face shaving, micro toothy edges that just seem to have a bit more "catch" even when finely polished. I finish pretty reliably with edges that can just tree-top some leg hair and cut across a paper towel like I would a piece of newspaper. Not hair whittling, but pretty close and in very short order. I recently did a machete for a buddy that could (I had to try before I gave it to him) dry shave my face with very little tug and tree-top leg hair. While it could have been prepared a number of ways, I was able to do it by hand using a file and one stone (1200 grit) in an hour - and this was starting from the extremely blunt factory edge that comes with most machetes. I did go back and spend a bit more time on it using a polishing grade stone (6000), but only improved it a small amount.

The characteristics that make them shine in my opinion:
Feedback when sharpening - they have a better "feel" than any other grinding method I've tried.
They are fast and consistent.
They grind with less distortion and burr formation at the apex than any other method I've tried - this IMHO is what makes the quality of the edge that little bit better than most other methods. I don't use a loaded strop anymore to finish an edge off, some newspaper or copy paper puts all the polish on that I need coming off the stone. I cannot get that kind of off-the-stone results from other methods.

They do have a longer learning curve, so that is a factor. Well worth the extra effort.
 
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I heard the following (you can ask Tom Blodggett for more details):

A while back (several years), wood-workers discovered import waterstones from Japan. They were extremely good for putting a keen edge on chisels. Nowadays, Japanese waterstones are well known, and very popular in the woodworking community.

From there, Japanese water stones percolated into the more general knife community. I think the razor community likes them too. Modern Japanese waterstones (the good ones) have a very long history, and current versions are said to be quite refined and optimized. I myself wouldn't know, because I haven't had a chance to try them, but I would love to.

I've heard, but have not experienced first hand, that Japanese waterstones break down very fast. This is by design: Japanese waterstones generally give a very good finish because they use softer abrasive. But softer-abrasives tend to cut slower. To compensate for this, the waterstones rapidly shed worn-out abrasive particles, so that new fresh and sharp abrasive particles are exposed all the time.

There is some engineering theory about how strong the binder should be. If the binder is too strong, then the top layer of abrasive particles get worn smooth, but stay stuck on the surface. If the binder is optimal, then soon after the top layer of particles are worn smooth, they break off and leave. If the binder is too weak, then the particles break off and leave before they do much cutting, which is a waste because they're still sharp.

I don't actually know the technical theory behind this, but I'm hoping to learn about it. There are technical engineering books about it.

Because waterstones break down quickly, I imagine they work and feel differently from most stones. My guess is that they're sometimes misunderstood by new users?

And yeah, if you have some spare high-quality waterstones, please send them to me. I'm dying to try some out! :)

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian

P.S. Among the people I talk to regularly, I think Tom Blodgett (of http://www.jendeindustries.com/ and https://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/ ) is the most knowledgeable about waterstones. He can probably answer any questions you have.

P.P.S. According to the book _The Complete Guide to Sharpening_ by Leonard Lee (1995), Japanese waterstones were optimized to work with exceptionally hard steels (like the extremely hard carbon steels in high-end Japanese kitchen knives). These super-hard steels would chip easily. So if you used a very hard stone, you would easily micro-chip the edge. The watestones are less likely to micro-chip super-hard steels, and generally give a more keen and polished edge. Leonard Lee's book mentions waterstones right from the start, in the intro, even before the first chapter. Keep in mind that Lee's perspective is from the woodworking community, as he runs http://www.leevalley.com a nice place to buy woodworking tools. A chapter or two of his book is devoted to the microscopic details of how wood fibres are cut by chisels and the formation of wood chips when carving. You can find his book on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-...1259/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336606908&sr=8-1
 
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Knifenut, Thombrogan, Rick Marchand to name just a few are all well-versed in waterstones. Do a few searches and you'll get some very interesting reading. You could also lurk on some foodie and chef forums - they seem to gravitate toward waterstones as well.
 
I use diamond hones and waterstones for all of my sharpening.

Only thing I would really like to add is, waterstones will not all work the same. Some don't make a mud or work anything like the common description found on nearly every corner of the web. Some don't hold water and others can simply be wrong for the style of knife or edged tool. They are complex and fun but be careful, it can become a addiction :D
 
With water stones do you have to have a steady stream of water flowing like at the sink or just keep water sprinkled on them as you sharpen?
 
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