"Weak Springs"

[bertl]

In the past year or so there have been a lot of comments about “weak springs” on recent 300 series knives, specifically the 301 and 303.

First, I don’t have enough recent 301s or 303s to test and really comment on possible changes.

Second, I wonder if it would be better to talk about “softer” opening and closing rather than about “weak” springs.

Third, I wonder if it is really important. If the knife opens and closes, is it necessary for it to close with enough force to cut off a finger that happens to get in the way?

Fourth, and maybe most important, I wonder if anyone has actually measured the force for spring deflection. This isn’t like a political campaign where if you say something often enough people begin to think it must be true. Remember that the force for opening and closing involves several factors. If you want to talk about “weak” springs, you have to take the knife apart and measure the springs, only. Probably, you need to measure the modulus of elasticity for the springs.

Fifth, it may be that a change in opening and closing has very little to do with the springs. A slight change in the geometry of the tang could have a significant effect.

Sixth, if you think there is a problem with a new knife there are some simple things that may correct things. Several comments have been made here on the forum that suggest things to try.

Finally, give your comments.

Bert

 

[Redhat]

In the past year or so there have been a lot of comments about “weak springs” on recent 300 series knives, specifically the 301 and 303.

First, I don’t have enough recent 301s or 303s to test and really comment on possible changes.

Second, I wonder if it would be better to talk about “softer” opening and closing rather than about “weak” springs.

Third, I wonder if it is really important. If the knife opens and closes, is it necessary for it to close with enough force to cut off a finger that happens to get in the way?

Fourth, and maybe most important, I wonder if anyone has actually measured the force for spring deflection. This isn’t like a political campaign where if you say something often enough people begin to think it must be true. Remember that the force for opening and closing involves several factors. If you want to talk about “weak” springs, you have to take the knife apart and measure the springs, only. Probably, you need to measure the modulus of elasticity for the springs.

Fifth, it may be that a change in opening and closing has very little to do with the springs. A slight change in the geometry of the tang could have a significant effect.

Sixth, if you think there is a problem with a new knife there are some simple things that may correct things. Several comments have been made here on the forum that suggest things to try.

Finally, give your comments.

Bert

Let me state up front that I have never had one of these type knives apart...but..I suspect this may be the cause since I don't see the springs varying all that much. Maybe a camming type surface on the blade that interacts with the spring? Hopefully someone who has will be able to comment.

Also, FWIW, I like mine to open on the easy side rather than leaving my fingernail bent backwards.

 

[afishhunter]

I have no problems with the "soft" opening of my 301's, 371's, and 389's, and prefer them to the other stockman and canoe patterns I have, for precisely that reason.
I don't want to fight the knife to open it when hands are cold and/or wet.
The springs are plenty strong to hold the knife closed in my pocket, and the force of cutting is such that it forces the blade open, unless you do something stupid.

 

[Makael]

Agree with all.

 

[David Martin]

A good topic of discussion. First let me say I'm not schooled in these models. Like some others, that are Very knowledgeable on slip locks. I carry one often, usually 4-5 days a week. Then I'll purchase 2-3 each year for gifts. These are always the U.S.A. made models. So my experience is not extensive. Still, to me
if they close, I'm good. It doesn't have to pop. I'm good with a soft bump. It doesn't have to snap when opened. It opens, I cut, then close it. All is well. I like for blades to not wobble. As I carry it they'll get broke in and it will open easier and close quicker. No problem. Merely some oil and cleaning could help a lot of
these concerns. DM

 

[Stumps]

I've had a number of the newer 301s in recent years that had a very soft blade closing action.
I remember a couple that I would have to help close up all the way because the blade wouldn't seat closed correctly. A little Hoppe's #9 would correct that enough to seat all the way most times.
One Chairman 301 even got sent back to Buck because it wouldn't seat properly at all.
I've sold all those and mentioned the soft action. That kind of action is exactly what some people were looking for...just not me.

Lots of people buy Great Eastern slippies. I've bought a few and sold them them right away because the blade action was much to hard for me.
I try to keep a very keen edge on my knives. I was actually fearful to use one of those GECs because of the consequences of what would happen if I accidentally got a finger in the way of one while closing it.

I have a 2007 Chinese made Buck 371 (same size as a Buck 301) and I really like that one. The blade action hits the middle ground perfectly for me. It gets used everyday at my desk, but never carried. Sharpens easily on a little diamond stone I keep in the desk.

The Buck slip joint that I carry most is a vintage pre-date code Buck 311 that also hits that middle ground as far as blade action.

Putting a number to the "pull" on a slippie blade is very subjective to each person.
For me the ones with very soft pull are 3 or less.
Medium pull is 4 to 6 and nail breakers are about a 7 or 8.

 

[Badhammer]

I too don't really care about nor see the need for a strong spring. Seems like how hard or soft a blade opens or closes has become another "problem" to complain about rather than an actual factor in the use of the product. As long as the blade stays open and closed I really don't care how much snap it has.

As others have mentioned, I've got some knives that are so hard to open that they seldom getter used.

 

[Old Hunter]

I use knives as tools but I'm also a "knife guy" - I like knives, so I have opinions about knives and what is "good" or "bad" in a knife. I find I prefer a knife in the middle of the scale Stumps posted (a 5 or 6 for me). If I have to push the blade shut, then the springs are too soft (or pick your preferred term). If I have to use a blade opener tool, or if the blade breaks my thumbnail, or if I have to be cautious opening in order not to get cut, then the springs are too hard (or pick your preferred term). I used one of my newer (2012) Buck 301 Stockman pocketknives yesterday to skin 12/2 UF on a cool day (wire cover was more brittle than on a warm day). The knife's lockup is strong enough to do the job without me worrying about it hurting me due to wobble, or worrying about the integrity of the lock, or worrying about the springs breaking - all that is required for the working use of the knife. However the opening/closing snap at a "5" is strong enough to click open and closed - that is satisfying to the knife collector in me. I'm fortunate that this knife meets the requirements I have for a knife to be both useful and desireable. I do know from my own experience that mass produced knives run the spectrum of soft to hard opening/closing - with modern Buck and Case tending towards softer for most of their production (people do complain on these forums about it) and modern GEC being tending toward harder (and people do complain on these forums about that). In a perfect world I'd mandate all knives have a 5 for opening and closing - but (thankfully) I'll never be in charge! OH

 

[DocT]

I do not like springs that are too soft nor those that are too hard as OH also said. However, I find that the springs of the current iteration of the 301 is too mushy for my tastes. They do not snap closed (and this in reverse keeps them closed), and the springs are not strong enough to keep them open in case of a slight off cut by me. Weirdly, I find the 302 just about right. So, I am not certain it is the tang geometry because of this. I am not certain of the actual culprit, though, since the 301 and 302 are the same knife sans extra blades in the 302.

 

[Joe58]

I do not like springs that are too soft nor those that are too hard as OH also said. However, I find that the springs of the current iteration of the 301 is too mushy for my tastes. They do not snap closed (and this in reverse keeps them closed), and the springs are not strong enough to keep them open in case of a slight off cut by me. Weirdly, I find the 302 just about right. So, I am not certain it is the tang geometry because of this. I am not certain of the actual culprit, though, since the 301 and 302 are the same knife sans extra blades in the 302.

I agree with the Doc. For my taste, using one of the newer Bucks with the softer springs just isn't comfortable for me. I think it's impossible for anyone using a smaller pocket knife not to be cutting something and end up with a little off working angle or weird position just due to the nature of the task at hand. When the blade moves a bit towards closing, makes me nervous. I'd like it just a tad stiffer and not so mushy feeling. The older non-Buck made 300's, and the Buck made 700's hit the sweet spot just right.

Over the course of the last year or more, I've seen this same topic several times. I tend to think there are more people who dislike the newer Buck 300 line with the softer backspring than those who do or are ambivalent towards it. Here on the forums though, most of our followers are more knife aware than the average consumer though.

But since I haven't seen a Buck rep address this topic directly here on the forum, I don't know the official party line except as those who've reported that after sending their knife to Buck, it's considered in spec. It is what it is I guess. I'll stick with my 703's.

 

[300Bucks]

Ok, I am looking but I live a regular life just like you people. I think I may have seen it in a catalog or in a Buck site, either the employee newsletter that some BCCI membesr get or on a Buck facebook page. Will keep looking. We can always go and request it from Customer Service. That's what they are there for....300

 

[pholder]

Greetings, the springs on my 301 are just plain weak, i choose to use the word weak.
When i have to help the blade all the way to the open position and again help all the way to the closed position, that back spring is weak.
does it matter, yes to me it does matter the strength of the back spring, maybe the powers that be at Buck should pay attention to customer concerns, that might lessen the amount of returns they receive in their warranty department. i have a new 301 that i won't use because of weak springs.

 

[Wramo]

I agree that the springs are just too weak on my recent Buck slip joints. If I make a partial cut into an apple, or cardboard, and pull up on the knife the blade will often start to close and stay in the material instead of lifting out. I also agree that some slip joints from other companies can be on the hard side to open, and some people like this. I think Victorinox SAK knives have good quality control and similar pull from knife to knife. Not too hard, but just right. GEC, on the other hand, can make some pretty hard pulls. The Bucks I have are on the other side of the SAK, unfortunately. It often doesn't feel safe to use one unless you do so very carefully. Not that they open in the pocket or have a lot of blade play, but the blades simply close too easily for my tastes.

It also feels a little weird to have these slippies close so easily when their 110 + other backlocks open so securely with such a reassuring SNAP.

 

[JD Bear]

I agree with the most recent comments from DocT, Joe58, pholder and Wramo. I'm not a fan of weaker springs, but my 301 feels like there is no tension at all. I was messing with it this weekend and seeing how much of a bump it would take to get it closed and it didn't take much at all. It just doesn't feel right to me and I don't carry it for this reason. I have a canoe, small stockman, and small trapper (all are Chinese unfortunately) and I like the spring tension on them.

 

[Emspop]

I own/carry several 303's, in fact it's the only pattern I carry anymore. I've probably had 20 of the "modern" 3 spring over the years ( I tend to give them to people that are always borrowing a knife). I never worried about the light pull, actually enjoy it when hands are cold or wet. Never had one close on me until I wanted it to and have never even heard of one opening in a pocket.
All that said more often the not I find myself reaching for a Camillus made model because I just love the look and feel of those, and while reading thru this thread I had to stop and realize I also like the ever so slightly tighter pull just a bit more then the modern...
Oops I think I just talked myself in a circle!