Codger_64
Moderator
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2004
- Messages
- 62,324
This past week I got an e-mail from a collector friend. "Codger, do you need one of these?". A link to an "off-Broadway" auction site. Click the link. A Schrade Old Timer I'd been lusting after for years but never plunked down the cash for. A near mint SFO of the pattern for $28.50 and low ship.
It just so happened I was bidding a fairly rare 152OT variant which he needed and I didn't. This was on an auction site which rhymes with "Freeway". After some last minute competition from a couple of half-hearted bidders, I won the knife and my friend and I worked out a swap.
While the 858OT Lumberjack was a fairly well known and documented pattern (though uncommon on the market) for many years, it took some sleuthing from Los Dos Bandidos Del Cuchillo and the donation of material from Bandido Solitario to come up with the story of this knife.
A special order knife for Schrade Europe. And several other patterns the origins of which had eluded collectors for some time. Special black laquered boxes emerged and added to the story.
Here is the story of the 512OT:
In early March of 1991, an order was received by Tim Faust, products Manager at ISC Ellenville, from the European sales office for five special Old Timer patterns for export only. These knives, designated “Product Family - Old Timer Europe”, were the 19OT, 126OT, 226OT, 512OT, and 518OT, all based upon domestic patterns, but with unique tang stamps and stainless blades. All were specified to be placed in black varnished boxes with gold imprinting, and packed with a standard OT/UH brochure.
The ISC production records revealed another part of the story:
The records for 1991 indicate only 25 shipped, and none shipped for the following four years. But the total inventory of 2,181 pieces produced dwindled from 2,156 to 1,077 to 221 to 0, indicating that they were salted into the regular 152OT production to unload the excess inventory for which there was no market beyong the initial 25 sent out in 1991. Their appearance on the U.S. market in regular production boxes supports this theory. The fact remains that while they are uncommon, they were not an error, except in judgement perhaps of the European sales office and the factory New Products Office for tooling up the order and running off 2,000 pieces (plus the normal 200 pc. +/- over run). Ditching them in the regular production boxes was a smart move in recovering the production costs, less the cost of the new tang stamp. No one really noticed the difference on the retail end, except that the order used stainless blading, the odd stamp. These did not have the later introduced stainless blades with hollow grind.
Once we knew what to look for, the relative rarity of the Europe Old Timer knives became more apparent.
19OT - A two blade pen knife, stainless blades and springs, OT handles.
Est. Qty. 1991: 600
Total Produced: 1,835
Total shipped to Europe: 251
126OT - One blade Mustang, stainless blade, OT handles, same knife as 125OT except stainless.
Est. Qty. 1991: 1,000
Total Produced: 1,483
Total shipped to Europe: 637
226OT - Same knife as 225OT except stainless.
Est. Qty. 1991: 500
Total Produced:
Total shipped to Europe: 953
(A subsequent order for this pattern appeared in 1994 for 500 pieces)
512OT - Same knife as 152OT except stainless.
Est. Qty. 1991: 750
Total Produced: 2,181
Total shipped to Europe:25
518OT - Same knife as 158OT except stainless.Est. Qty. 1991: 600
Total Produced: 2,246
Total shipped to Europe: 26
So now you know the story of the 512OT and a few other obscure Old Timers. The quotes above (in blue) are from my own previous posts. So I am quoting myself here.
Now the 858 Lumberjack is a clydesdale of a different color. We'll start with the factory flyer from the Schrade Collector site built and maintained by uno de los bandidos, bibliotecario Irving del bandido.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/FLYERS/SC-1973-1979/pages/SC-77-9.htm
Now my research:
858OT Lumberjack Research
The 858OT Lumberjack, introduced in 1978, was a very large stockman, or Texas Pattern knife, to use a term Schrade used for their bonus sized knives of this ilk back in the 1950's. A cursory search produced numerous patterns of larger than four inches, but most if not all were “professional trades” knives like the #735 Marlin Spike, or the horticultural knives. Or the huge folding hunter jack knives we are all familiar with.
The Lumberjack was just a bit larger than any other stockman offering in the Old Timer line, or the predecessor open stock line as far as I can see. At 4 5/8 inches closed. It was so large as to be considered a sheath knife, not a pocket knife, and indeed a sheath was included for the $20.00 asking price. That would be nearly $85 in 2007 dollars.
Sporting an appropriately enlarged pair of brown sawcut Delrin scales with the familiar Old Timer shield, brass liners and lined (pinched) nickel silver bolsters, it had a 3 1/8" clip master blade, 2 1/16" spey blade, and 2 1/4" sheepfoot blade all made from our favorite 1095HC carbon steel. They were made for nine years, being discontinued after 1986. While this is not by any means a short run compared to many Old Timer patterns, it’s large size may have limited it’s sales causing this pattern to be relatively scarce today. They were last listed for $36.95 in 1986.
As I mentioned, I was unable to find a direct predecessor to this knife, but it does seem to be an 8OT of enlarged proportions. Schrade still listed it as a pocketknife, but perhaps they were just shy of using the name folder. Having been introduced after the company changed it’s name in 1973, you will not likely see one with Schrade Walden tangstamp.
Several examples (including the subject of this post) which I have seen had the tangstamp SCHRADE+ over U.S.A. 858, indicating stainless blades. This validates the 1982 catalog notation that the blade is “Schrade+ Steel”, a notation continued through 1986. A few I have seen did not have the stainless blades, but still did not use the “OT” identifier suffix on the stamp. Associated packing and statements by former Schrade employees seem to confirm this general change date.
It also had decorative pinched bolsters and a plain long pull. I have also seen one with cream base material instead of the more familiar tan or light brown.
I know of only a few SFOs or limited edition, and no UH variant this knife was used for, but I am sure more will come to my attention in the future. Rare is the OT pattern that was not.
Herman Williams did produce a limited edition custom version. It is a Schrade 858 Catawba Valley Knife Club knife that was customized by Herman Williams to a 5 blade in 1986. This knife has dark genuine stag handles. Each of the five blades is etched with an example of industries and/or place in the Catawba River Valley. Nickel silver grooved bolsters and brass liners. The nickel silver shield is engraved C.V.K.C. Clip master blade tang stamped "SCHRADE+ USA 858". It is etched Catawba Valley Knife club 1986 1 of 60. second blade is a small clip, etched with an arrowhead Old Fort McDowell county.Third blade is etched with a chair and Furniture Drexel, NC. Fourth blade is etched with a loaf of Sunbeam bread, Valdese, NC Waldensian Bakeries. Fifth blade is etched with a picture of a wine bottle, Wine Icard, NC. Has three backsprings. Length 4 5/8" closed, 10 3/8" open blade on each end.
Schrade made one with a simple logo name blade etch for tool company Ingersol Rand, “Ingersol Rand Professional Tools”. This is the one now winging it's way to my collection. I still need to find the correct sheath for this one, so if anyone has an extra, email me.
Michael
It just so happened I was bidding a fairly rare 152OT variant which he needed and I didn't. This was on an auction site which rhymes with "Freeway". After some last minute competition from a couple of half-hearted bidders, I won the knife and my friend and I worked out a swap.
While the 858OT Lumberjack was a fairly well known and documented pattern (though uncommon on the market) for many years, it took some sleuthing from Los Dos Bandidos Del Cuchillo and the donation of material from Bandido Solitario to come up with the story of this knife.
A special order knife for Schrade Europe. And several other patterns the origins of which had eluded collectors for some time. Special black laquered boxes emerged and added to the story.
Here is the story of the 512OT:
In early March of 1991, an order was received by Tim Faust, products Manager at ISC Ellenville, from the European sales office for five special Old Timer patterns for export only. These knives, designated “Product Family - Old Timer Europe”, were the 19OT, 126OT, 226OT, 512OT, and 518OT, all based upon domestic patterns, but with unique tang stamps and stainless blades. All were specified to be placed in black varnished boxes with gold imprinting, and packed with a standard OT/UH brochure.
The ISC production records revealed another part of the story:
The records for 1991 indicate only 25 shipped, and none shipped for the following four years. But the total inventory of 2,181 pieces produced dwindled from 2,156 to 1,077 to 221 to 0, indicating that they were salted into the regular 152OT production to unload the excess inventory for which there was no market beyong the initial 25 sent out in 1991. Their appearance on the U.S. market in regular production boxes supports this theory. The fact remains that while they are uncommon, they were not an error, except in judgement perhaps of the European sales office and the factory New Products Office for tooling up the order and running off 2,000 pieces (plus the normal 200 pc. +/- over run). Ditching them in the regular production boxes was a smart move in recovering the production costs, less the cost of the new tang stamp. No one really noticed the difference on the retail end, except that the order used stainless blading, the odd stamp. These did not have the later introduced stainless blades with hollow grind.
Once we knew what to look for, the relative rarity of the Europe Old Timer knives became more apparent.
19OT - A two blade pen knife, stainless blades and springs, OT handles.
Est. Qty. 1991: 600
Total Produced: 1,835
Total shipped to Europe: 251
126OT - One blade Mustang, stainless blade, OT handles, same knife as 125OT except stainless.
Est. Qty. 1991: 1,000
Total Produced: 1,483
Total shipped to Europe: 637
226OT - Same knife as 225OT except stainless.
Est. Qty. 1991: 500
Total Produced:
Total shipped to Europe: 953
(A subsequent order for this pattern appeared in 1994 for 500 pieces)
512OT - Same knife as 152OT except stainless.
Est. Qty. 1991: 750
Total Produced: 2,181
Total shipped to Europe:25
518OT - Same knife as 158OT except stainless.Est. Qty. 1991: 600
Total Produced: 2,246
Total shipped to Europe: 26
So now you know the story of the 512OT and a few other obscure Old Timers. The quotes above (in blue) are from my own previous posts. So I am quoting myself here.
Now the 858 Lumberjack is a clydesdale of a different color. We'll start with the factory flyer from the Schrade Collector site built and maintained by uno de los bandidos, bibliotecario Irving del bandido.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/FLYERS/SC-1973-1979/pages/SC-77-9.htm
Now my research:
858OT Lumberjack Research
The 858OT Lumberjack, introduced in 1978, was a very large stockman, or Texas Pattern knife, to use a term Schrade used for their bonus sized knives of this ilk back in the 1950's. A cursory search produced numerous patterns of larger than four inches, but most if not all were “professional trades” knives like the #735 Marlin Spike, or the horticultural knives. Or the huge folding hunter jack knives we are all familiar with.
The Lumberjack was just a bit larger than any other stockman offering in the Old Timer line, or the predecessor open stock line as far as I can see. At 4 5/8 inches closed. It was so large as to be considered a sheath knife, not a pocket knife, and indeed a sheath was included for the $20.00 asking price. That would be nearly $85 in 2007 dollars.
Sporting an appropriately enlarged pair of brown sawcut Delrin scales with the familiar Old Timer shield, brass liners and lined (pinched) nickel silver bolsters, it had a 3 1/8" clip master blade, 2 1/16" spey blade, and 2 1/4" sheepfoot blade all made from our favorite 1095HC carbon steel. They were made for nine years, being discontinued after 1986. While this is not by any means a short run compared to many Old Timer patterns, it’s large size may have limited it’s sales causing this pattern to be relatively scarce today. They were last listed for $36.95 in 1986.
As I mentioned, I was unable to find a direct predecessor to this knife, but it does seem to be an 8OT of enlarged proportions. Schrade still listed it as a pocketknife, but perhaps they were just shy of using the name folder. Having been introduced after the company changed it’s name in 1973, you will not likely see one with Schrade Walden tangstamp.
Several examples (including the subject of this post) which I have seen had the tangstamp SCHRADE+ over U.S.A. 858, indicating stainless blades. This validates the 1982 catalog notation that the blade is “Schrade+ Steel”, a notation continued through 1986. A few I have seen did not have the stainless blades, but still did not use the “OT” identifier suffix on the stamp. Associated packing and statements by former Schrade employees seem to confirm this general change date.
It also had decorative pinched bolsters and a plain long pull. I have also seen one with cream base material instead of the more familiar tan or light brown.
I know of only a few SFOs or limited edition, and no UH variant this knife was used for, but I am sure more will come to my attention in the future. Rare is the OT pattern that was not.
Herman Williams did produce a limited edition custom version. It is a Schrade 858 Catawba Valley Knife Club knife that was customized by Herman Williams to a 5 blade in 1986. This knife has dark genuine stag handles. Each of the five blades is etched with an example of industries and/or place in the Catawba River Valley. Nickel silver grooved bolsters and brass liners. The nickel silver shield is engraved C.V.K.C. Clip master blade tang stamped "SCHRADE+ USA 858". It is etched Catawba Valley Knife club 1986 1 of 60. second blade is a small clip, etched with an arrowhead Old Fort McDowell county.Third blade is etched with a chair and Furniture Drexel, NC. Fourth blade is etched with a loaf of Sunbeam bread, Valdese, NC Waldensian Bakeries. Fifth blade is etched with a picture of a wine bottle, Wine Icard, NC. Has three backsprings. Length 4 5/8" closed, 10 3/8" open blade on each end.
Schrade made one with a simple logo name blade etch for tool company Ingersol Rand, “Ingersol Rand Professional Tools”. This is the one now winging it's way to my collection. I still need to find the correct sheath for this one, so if anyone has an extra, email me.
Michael
