Well-made production versions of customs: How do they affect custom sales?

Kaizen1

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I can't speak for anyone else, but when I think of a nice production version of a custom that I like, I tend to lose interest in buying the custom version of a knife model. I can get a lot of the features of the model that I liked about the custom without the price tag. On top of that, the mass production seems to lose the uniqueness and scarcity that I once saw in the custom model. This isn't the case all of the time, but it has occurred often enough to make me start this thread. I'm guessing that it might do the opposite for some people and inspire them to want the custom version even more.

Does it change anything for your custom buying habits, negatively or positively? Does it depend on the case? I've avoided using specific examples in attempts to avoid any possible negative marketing this may do for any particular maker's knife model.
 
For me it usually is the opposite. I get a production model thats based off a custom or "semi-custom" and want the custom one even more. For instance when I bought a Kershaw Groove I really liked it and was happy to get a try at an RJ Martin design. After owning it a while I had to have a devastator....so I bought one.

Same thing the Zing from Kershaw has done. I really like my Zing, I can only imagine an RJ Martin custom could only be nicer.

I bought a Buck/strider Tarani years back and ended up getting a strider because of it (not really a true custom but you get the picture).

Other production knives have inspired me to buy there upper end bretheren.
 
Just the opposite for me as well.
It should enhance a maker's custom knife sales as long as it's a quality production of the maker's knife made by a financially solid and reputable knife company.

In my opinion, it's good for the production company, the maker and for those who collect his/her knives.
Anything that helps to get the maker's name out in a positive way to the knife buying public is a good thing.

It's even better than free advertisement as the maker is being compensated in most cases. This compensation can help in progressing his custom knives by allowing him to buy additional or better equipment and/or paying for learning new skills to make his custom knives more marketable (engraving school, learning to make damascus for example).
 
I actually got into custom knives because of Osborne designed Benchmades. Most of my higher-end production knives are users, with the occaisional William Henry or Benchmade gold class knife sitting in a locked cabinet. That being said, I almost exclusively carry production knives which are more utilitarian, and I have a hard time using anything else on a daily basis. I think "custom collaborations" are great for all parties involved. One of my favorite users is the Buck/Mayo TNT, which although not Talonite, holds up quite well. I'd be really nervous walking around the boat and cutting rope and bait with a $1000 knife.
 
I've never wanted a custom RAM more than I do now, (just can't afford it yet). My Kershaw RAMs are about as custom as you can get, too. Ironwood and buckeye burl scales and Gavin's own Grip Clips. It still isn't the same as the real thing.
 
I'll avoid naming the particular models that I no longer have much interest in because they came out with production models. But here are the ones that I was positively affected by- (I wanted the customs even more after seeing the productions):

-Hinderer XM-18 (arguably, the Gen 3 isn't a "production" but it made me want the full custom ones more)
-Snody Knives/BM Gravitator
-Spyderco/Janich/Snody Yojimbo
-Spyderco Phoenix
-Camillus Dominator/ DDR Gunhammer

I also want to point out that there have been some production versions that I didn't find appealing and those didn't affect my interest in the custom versions either way. That's why I titled it "well-made" productions.
 
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Nice production versions of custom knives have absolutely no effect on my desire for the custom knife. In fact, I don't even think about the production version.
 
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high end factory knives opened the door for me. I appreciate the high quality and precision, and particularly the performance. Benchmade knives fill almost every need I have for a folding knife, and although I have a number of Benchmades, I wouldn't say I collect them, (ie; I don't own more than one of any model)

I don't expect a custom knife to have better performance than a high end factory knife, but that's not really the point for me at least when it comes to folders. I don't seek out the custom version just because I like the production version.

Straight knives to me, are totally different, as there are no high end factory knives in some of the categories that interest me. Particularly, the 'look' of the knives I like can't really be duplicated or at least no one is really trying on a mass scale. Functionally, Fallkniven straight knives fit the bill for most of my utilitarian endeavours, but not all of them. My favourite category, doesn't in fact have an alter ego in any mass production product mix.

At any rate, the custom knife bug has bitten me and there is no turning back. I have all the utilitarian factory knives I could ever need, (plus some) and the only passion I feel for knives is felt over those which are handmade customs.

I wonder how it plays out for guys who license their designs to a big factory player? Is it all a tiptoe through the tulips, or are there mines in them thar tulips?
 
A factory collaboration gives the average knifemaker publicity far beyond what he could hope to buy on his own. That publicity will increase the demand for the maker's original handmade knives in every case I can think of. There are knifemakers who came to the public forefront simply because of their promotion by the companies they design for.

Bob Loveless got a boost when he designed knives for Schrade--and since then he has designed knives for Gerber, Beretta, and Lone Wolfe. Didn't seem to hurt his handmade business.

Few people had ever heard of Ken Onion until Kershaw came along and made him a household name.

There is some downside, in particular the case of Gil Hibben, who designed the knife for the third and fourth Rambo movies. Thanks to the promotion of United Cutlery it got to the point that almost no factory knife buyer realized that Jimmy Lile designed the first two. To add to the confusion the over-enthusiastic sellers of knives on satellite tv would sometimes proclaim their Gil Hibben designs as being "handmade by Gil Hibben". It didn't hurt Gil's sales of his handmade knives, but it would sure burst the bubbles of the buyers when they send a factory made knife to me and want me to put it in the "handmade" section of an auction catalog.

A factory collaboration is in many ways the golden ring for a knifemaker.

The neatest thing for a knifemaker who's output is limited primarily by his time is that with a factory collaboration he is making money while he's asleep, with no further shop time. And if the manufacturer wants him to come help out in the booth at something like the SHOT Show, he gets even more exposure.
 
I have a large and a small Benchmade 'Rukus' designed by Neil Blackwood. It's with me on the docks and boatyard doing abuse daily. Always ready to get lost in the water, too. I would never consider using a Custom of his in this capacity, and you can't even acquire one for a Safe Queen, he is so limited in production.

That said, I really like Neil, I love these cool designs, and for less than $200 each I use both (The smaller one is an illegal auto, here in CT. Oh, the drama!) Outside benefit, he got a commission from my purchases.

Bottom line: I guess he's not getting my Custom dollar. Is he a richer man and happier from the availability of this collaboration? Only he can answer, and that would be revealing.

### Edit: Bruce and I posted at the same time. He answered Part B of my post quite well. :)

Coop
 
In general, I think production version has positive effect on corresponding custom knife sales.
It will give more public presence to the custom.
 
Generally once the factory knife comes out...demand for the same custom knife goes down.

Confusion is caused in for sale forums when you see:

For Sale: Carson, Terzuola, Elishewitz, Emerson, Lake, Osborne and Fisk.

Only to find out that these are all factory knives. This is the strategy of the factory...to give a false impression that the knives are similar since the names and designs are being utilized.

As Bruce says the factory deal can be the brass ring. However, the businessmen among the knife makers know it is best to give the factory and "exclusive" design...as opposed to one of the models the makers spent years developing and marketing.

Severed Thumbs brought up Neil Blackwood. Actually Neil was very well known...which is why the factory went after him.

BTW, Severed what every happened to Neil....after all he had all that "Good Factory Press".

The biggest benefit to the custom knife market that factories provide is to introduce custom makers and their knives to factory buyers. The mean age of buyers of custom knives has consistently dropped over the past 15 years.

The majority of the factories out there owe their very existence to the custom knife makers.
 
Nice production versions of custom knives have absolutely no effect on desire for the custom knife. In fact, I don't even think about the production version.
I am the same way. I have no interest in the production version either. Nor do I think about the production version.
 
Hi Severed,

Pricing had something to do with it.

His folder prices got away from him and he could not recover. Which is too bad Neil is a very good knife maker.
 
The pinnacle exception to this phenomenon, might be little-known Ed Halligan, who designed and sold the rights to the K.I.S.S. version of framelock folders to CRKT. He told me he makes a dollar off of each one sold. in 2002 they had sold 600,000. They have probably sold a million by now. Hmmmmm. :thumbup:

KISS_GRP_08.jpg


I wish Neil was back in the game, but I think he only does knives part time.

Coop
 
Generally once the factory knife comes out...demand for the same custom knife goes down.

Confusion is caused in for sale forums when you see:

For Sale: Carson, Terzuola, Elishewitz, Emerson, Lake, Osborne and Fisk.
The majority of the factories out there owe their very existence to the custom knife makers.

That is just a total crock of horse manure! The demand for custom Lake, Osborne and Fisk knives has dropped due to factory models designed by them is utter nonsense. Les, you are so out of line with that statement, you really should just apologize right now...rather than stop short like a well known occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue!

First, none of those makers has made over 3,000 knives in their career, and Ozzie is probably the most prolific, and he hasn't hit 2,000 yet! So I padded my numbers there.

Next, the average knife produced by any of those makers is well over $2,000 today, and Lake as you know well, averages between $12,000-$15,000.

Finally, check out my avatar, it actually is a custom version of a Benchmade design! CAN'T YOU TELL!
 
Hi Marc,

Go back and reread what I wrote.

I used the litenay of names to illustrate a point. That in many of the for sale forums the factory knives are listed by the custom makers names....NOT THE FACTORY THAT MADE THEM.

Yes, generally speaking once a custom knife is copied by a factory the demand for THAT PARTICULAR CUSTOM KNIFE drops.

While CRKT: http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum4348.php
and Schrade offer "LAKE" models they are not copying his Interframe folder. They are offering a design by LAKE....not an copy of his Tail Lock Interframe.

Should you need further clarification of what models are offered by the factories and how they differ from what is being sold by the custom maker...check the Internet. Took less than 10 seconds to find the Lake Signature Model by CRKT. Which "Custom" Ron Lake knife do you think that looks like...careful with your answer. I suspect the majority of the people who buy that knife don't even know who Ron Lake is.

Oh here is a link to some Osborne's: http://www.thefind.com/sports/browse-osborne-axis-lock-aluminum-handle

Which of Warren's knives do you think these look like?

If you read my post (which you apparently didn't) you would now understand that I wrote:

Generally once the factory knife comes out...demand for the same custom knife goes down.

So again, which Custom Osborne or Lake did you think those factory knives looked like.
 
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