Wetterlings newest addition 'Hudson Bay'

[aikonen]

"The Hudson Bay Axe by Wetterlings of today is forged by Rikard Jansson, one of the skilled blacksmiths at Wetterlings Axe Forge in Storvik, Sweden.

The axe is made of Swedish Carbon Steel and the bit is hardened to 57 Rockwell C. This is harder than most Hudson Bay Axes on the market."

"2 ½ pound head, total weight 3 pound with handle, hickory handle overall length 60 cm (about 23”)."

Sooo... Any thoughts on this? I have always felt the Wetterlings have too much meat behind the edge, the cheeks are really beefy compared to other newly made axes.

Does HB patterns usually have this profile?

http://www.wetterlings.com/hudson-bay-axe-by-wetterlings/

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

A thicker geometry tends to be good for softwoods since the bit will readily sink deeply, so the thicker bit puts more energy into popping the chip rather than penetration to help keep it from over-penetrating and getting stuck. But that does seem a bit on the thick side, and the eye looks a tad small, as Hudson Bay patterns already have a bit of trouble with loosening heads due to their short eye height. That being said, it's hard to say without actually having one in hand and playing with it, so it could be a solid performer--this is all just conjecture from a couple of stock images.

 

[halfaxe]

The early US manufactured Hudson Bays by Peavey Axe and Snow & Nealley had 1 1/2-1 3/4 lb. heads. The shape of the Wetterlings head looks very similar to the early style heads but is a pound heavier. More of a boys axe weight. That would tend to increase the susceptibility to head loosening I think. Too bad they didn't go with a lighter head. I still may buy one though, check it out and add it to my Hudson Bay collection.

 

[Square_peg]

I like RC 57 but I'd like it even more if they told us the carbon content of the steel. Is it 4140 hardened to near the max or 1070 tempered back to RC 57? Makes a big difference in toughness and abrasion resistance.

That aside, it's a fine looking axe. I really like the ample poll.

 

[Steve Tall]

Wetterlings steel:

The steel is purchased in various dimensions, but 3 m long rods, packed in giant bundles, where each bundle is weighing 8-10 tons. The steel comes from Ovako in Smedjebacken, and made to correct dimensions in the Ovako mill in Boxholm. Wetterling’s buys steel bars in five different dimensions. The steel is 100 % recycled scrap iron that is, under controlled processes, mixed to our specification, optimal for forging axes. The steel is based on the C55 carbon mixed with silicon, manganese and vanadium.
http://www.wetterlings.com/how-to/

C55 supposedly has 0.52-0.60% Carbon.

 

[Square_peg]

That ain't bad at all. Sounds like the same stuff GB uses. They should say that instead of the 'Swedish Carbon Steel' which sounds like useless advertising jargon (which it is).

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I think that they probably figure folks into the technical specs will go digging for it but for typical customers it means nothing to them.

 

[aikonen]

The early US manufactured Hudson Bays by Peavey Axe and Snow & Nealley had 1 1/2-1 3/4 lb. heads. The shape of the Wetterlings head looks very similar to the early style heads but is a pound heavier. More of a boys axe weight. That would tend to increase the susceptibility to head loosening I think. Too bad they didn't go with a lighter head. I still may buy one though, check it out and add it to my Hudson Bay collection.

Thank you halfaxe. I thought early Hudsons had a much thinner bit than this model. Let me know if you pick one up!

 

[Square_peg]

The steel is based on the C55 carbon mixed with silicon, manganese and vanadium.[/I]
http://www.wetterlings.com/how-to/

C55 supposedly has 0.52-0.60% Carbon.

It strikes me as interesting the the hardened axes are tempered at only 195°C (383°F). That's a very low temperature for tempering an axe - still in the yellow/straw color range. I'm surprised that it gets down to RC 57 at that temperature. Higher carbon steels would require tempering to about 500°F. So this steel is at close to its maximum hardness.

 

[halfaxe]

Thank you halfaxe. I thought early Hudsons had a much thinner bit than this model. Let me know if you pick one up!

I think it might be a while. Not much information out there and it doesn't look like it is available anywhere yet. It depends on how popular this is too. A lot of the Swedish axe models are still hard to get.

 

[Steve Tall]

It strikes me as interesting the the hardened axes are tempered at only 195°C (383°F). That's a very low temperature for tempering an axe - still in the yellow/straw color range. I'm surprised that it gets down to RC 57 at that temperature. Higher carbon steels would require tempering to about 500°F. So this steel is at close to its maximum hardness.

Gransfors does a similar heat treatment as Wetterlings.

Gransfors:
"...the edge is hardened by heating it to 820°C and then rapidly cooling it in cold water... the axe heads in an oven at 195°C for 60 minutes."

Wetterlings:
"...slightly more than 800°C...a rapid cooling, in running tepid water... a 195°C warm oven for about one hour."

http://www.gransforsbruk.com/en/production/grinding-tempering-and-annealing/
http://www.wetterlings.com/how-to/

 

[Operator1975]

I will ask them to send me one to test, and see how it is. I have an Autine inbound to test now, and a Liam Hoffman as well. See how these go.

 

[BG_Farmer]

It strikes me as interesting the the hardened axes are tempered at only 195°C (383°F). That's a very low temperature for tempering an axe - still in the yellow/straw color range. I'm surprised that it gets down to RC 57 at that temperature. Higher carbon steels would require tempering to about 500°F. So this steel is at close to its maximum hardness.

I think the key phrase is "based on C55", but it is alloyed a bit. That allows higher final hardness, I.e., not drawing the temper as much, with better toughness than pure carbon steel. I believe I can feel a difference b/t carbon steel and e.g. 5160 when filing. The alloys feel " dead" and seem to catch the file. May be my imagination, though .

 

[Operator1975]

Just received confirmation that I have one of these in bound for review. Will post it up as soon as I can after I get it.

Thanks!

 

[Square_peg]

It strikes me as interesting the the hardened axes are tempered at only 195°C (383°F). That's a very low temperature for tempering an axe - still in the yellow/straw color range. I'm surprised that it gets down to RC 57 at that temperature. Higher carbon steels would require tempering to about 500°F. So this steel is at close to its maximum hardness.

Gransfors does a similar heat treatment as Wetterlings.

Gransfors:
"...the edge is hardened by heating it to 820°C and then rapidly cooling it in cold water... the axe heads in an oven at 195°C for 60 minutes."

Wetterlings:
"...slightly more than 800°C...a rapid cooling, in running tepid water... a 195°C warm oven for about one hour."

http://www.gransforsbruk.com/en/production/grinding-tempering-and-annealing/
http://www.wetterlings.com/how-to/

Thank you. I bring this up because I wish to dispel some people's application of mystical properties to Swedish medium carbon steel. I know you're not in that group, Steve. Your post is just a good lead in for me.

C55 steel is at the borderline of medium carbon and high carbon steels. Some classify it as one, some as the other. But it's much lower carbon than was used to make axes in the past.

There are different ways to producing an axe with mid-50's RC hardness. Hardening a medium carbon steel to near it's maximum hardness is one way. Using a higher carbon steel and tempering it back further is another. Both have the same hardness but the higher carbon axe will have the great wear resistance.

Link

US Forest Service specs called for a minimum of 72 points of carbon for an axe bit. But axes of yore often exceeded that. Agricultural steels like 1080 or 1085 were used. 1095, a common knife steel was used. Even higher carbon 'razor steel' was used in some axes. Sears advertised their 'Fulton Razor Blade' axe with it's high carbon steel.

Link

Medium carbon steels are easier to forge and easier to machine. They're easier to grind in their annealed state than high carbon steel. There are plenty of reasons for a manufacturer to choose a medium carbon steel over a high carbon steel which aren't rooted in making the best axe possible.

Don't get me wrong, C55 is good steel and an RC of 57 is great for an axe. But buyers should be aware that an axe with those attributes isn't something special - or at least it wasn't in days gone by. By today's standards it's very good.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

At the same time, remember the different modes of dulling. Axes really don't experience much abrasive wear, so while they may have greater abrasion resistance at equal hardness if done in higher carbon steel, you're not cutting a lot of abrasive material with them. Most dulling will occur due to either rolling or chipping, depending on the hardness and toughness of the steel.

 

[Chignecto Woodsman]

Swedish steel is generally good, but how much does the world economy force little cutback measures here and there? Recycled steel could be just one problem. And cutbacks leaving Sweden at the top may just mean everything else has become ridiculously bad.

Haven't used my Maine axes as long yet, but at this point they seem to wear really well. Some suggest they would have twice the carbon.

And that reminds me. Mora laminated steel, isn't that a bit like the inserted high-carbon edge? I wonder why the Swedes don't do something similar with the axes.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

And that reminds me. Mora laminated steel, isn't that a bit like the inserted high-carbon edge? I wonder why the Swedes don't do something similar with the axes.

Because with Moras the steel can be bought in stock ready for blanking. Forge-welding in a bit is a much more labor-intensive process from a production standpoint.

 

[Square_peg]

Many of Mora's more affordable knives are cut from rolled high carbon steel. Nothing wrong with that. Still good stuff. Steel doesn't need to be exotic to make a good knife. Look at 'Old Hickory' knives. Rolled 1095.

 

[BG_Farmer]

It is not 1055 equivalent, C55 is, but whatever steel it is is only based on C55. The manganese is normal and maybe the silicon, but vanadium is not normally a component of "carbon steel", I don't think. I have no idea how much vanadium is used or what effect it has at that concentration, but I don't think it is trivial or they would not have mentioned it. It is an alloy, and the heat treatment is obviously different from ordinary medium carbon steel. Even 1055 would be drawn back at a higher temperature!