What a learning curve to waterstones, am I alone?

C

Climb14er

Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
244
I got a pair of Shapton Pro 1000 and 5000 waterstones last week along with the Murray Carter Advanced Sharpening DVD.

Now I'm a fairly astute man who's handy with his hands :rolleyes:, I followed Murray Carter's advice and while I get the edges sharp, when I'm finished sharpening/polishing on the 5000 (wow, is this a hard/slick stone or what?) I have a nice edge but it's not grabbing the three fingers...more of a smooth 'ballpoint' edge that Murray describes.

Can anyone offer some advice in how to get the 'grabby' and sharp three finger edge that passes Murray's test for sharp and scary sharp rather than the nice smooth edge that I have?

BTW, I recognize that this takes time so I'll be patient in the interim...and still use the Sharpmaker too. ;) But I'd like to learn the right way re: the waterstones.

Suggestions? Thanks in advance! ;)
 
Cliff, the edge after 1000 is kind of toothy, grabs a little, I can definitely feel the burrs forming.

According to Murray, I then take the blade to the 5000, and just a few strokes, trailing (upwards and away with the edge closest to me), then knock off the burr/edge on a piece of wood, lightly, then a few more trailing swipes and then done.

It's here that the edge is nice and looks finished but not grabby.

This is where I'm bewildered. :confused:

Jerry
 
Hey Climb, not trying to hijack your thread, but could you elaborate on this:

the 'grabby' and sharp three finger edge that passes Murray's test for sharp and scary sharp
Click to expand...

I'd love to know how to perform the method you are referring to.

Thanks,

sp
 
Barrabas said:
Hey Climb, not trying to hijack your thread, but could you elaborate on this:
I'd love to know how to perform the method you are referring to.
Thanks,
sp
Click to expand...

It's in the video. Basically, you hold the knife in your right hand, and with your left thumb, you place it on the top of the blade to secure it. Then you take the middle three fingers, and press and feel the blade. Be careful as Murray says, the degree of sharpeness can do things to the fingers. ;)

BTW, with the Sharpmaker, I can get the BM705 very, very sharp! I'd like to duplicate this on the waterstones. :thumbup:
 
Climb14er said:
Cliff, the edge after 1000 is kind of toothy, grabs a little, I can definitely feel the burrs forming.
Click to expand...

The edge should be sharp at all stages of grit, it is far easier to deburr a 1000 grit edge with a 1000 grit stone than a 5000 grit one. If you wait until the last stage a very heavy burr can form which is difficult to remove. Especially on various stainless steels, and coarse and soft steels in general.

...then knock off the burr/edge on a piece of wood
Click to expand...

This is not a good idea, the burr is formed of debris and weakened steel, if you knock it off it fractures/compacts against the solid steel on the edge. Cut it off with the stone, optimally do it with each grit. The only reason to ever do that is when the burr is so large and problematic it will not come off on the stone, some really cheap stainless can do this, especially with files.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
This is not a good idea, the burr is formed of debris and weakened steel, if you knock it off it fractures/compacts against the solid steel on the edge. Cut it off with the stone, optimally do it with each grit. The only reason to ever do that is when the burr is so large and problematic it will not come off on the stone, some really cheap stainless can do this, especially with files.
-Cliff
Click to expand...

Cliff, thanks. I understand what you're saying. When I viewed the Carter dvd, he seems to swipe lightly, as if to remove the last metal from the edge, on the wood, or I'm thinking the burr, after he's finished with both the 1000 and 6000 stones that he uses, and then finishes each stage with a couple of swipes on each stone.

Carter seems to have his 'system' down and that's the only waterstone's dvd I've ever viewed.

Are you saying to omit the swiping of the edge on the piece of wood and just go to the 5000 stone to finish/polish after the burr has formed on the 1000?
 
Do not swipe off on the wood, rather wipe off all traces off burr on a finer stone. With some skill, doing it on the 1000 grit stone shouldn't be a problem
 
Exactly, use the stone. Burr removal usually takes 1-2 passes, I use the method Clark outlined, raise the angle significantly, cut the burr off and reform the edge again at the lower angle.

-Cliff
 
So do I (using Jeff Clarks technique of raising the angle). That step is the only one that I do not like in Murray Carters technique.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Exactly, use the stone. Burr removal usually takes 1-2 passes, I use the method Clark outlined, raise the angle significantly, cut the burr off and reform the edge again at the lower angle.
-Cliff
Click to expand...

Just to clarify...

Use the 1000 stone to remove the burr (couple of passes, raised angle) that set up on the 1000, then move to the 5000, lightly sharpen/polish...then remove that burr with same stone, raised angle.

Correct?

I guess the wood was knocking off the burr before I was 'finished' and I ended up both times with polished/rounded edges. :rolleyes:

Thanks!
 
HoB said:
So do I (using Jeff Clarks technique of raising the angle). That step is the only one that I do not like in Murray Carters technique.
Click to expand...

I do the wood for BG-42 when I get a burr the size of a hang glider. Most times I can shave it off without raising the angle at all, by dragging the edge lengthwise over a finer stone (heel to tip) leaving what looks like a neat little pencil line (works well with a small burr on Shapton's due to their hardness... their hardness also makes it easy to round the edge as they are not forgiving of angle slop like softer stones).
 
On the initial poster's questions I'm going to say that your edge is slightly rounded but I'm not going to blame the wood for this. I feel it's more a factor of stone hardness combined with technique. It's very easy to round an edge when first using the Shapton 5000x+ stones.

On the wood/burr issue, just a few months ago I would have been strong against this technique for the very reasons stated above from other posters.

A friend recently lent me his copy of Murray's DVD and I began thinking about this step. Actually, to be honest, I initially dismissed it without even trying it. It wasn't until later when I went back and tried using the wood that things became interesting.

I found there to be a distinct advantage to swiping the knife's edge through a soft wood (balsa) block. I would do this between each grit level (betwen changing stones). I found that I was able to move onto the sharpening the edge on the next finer stone without having to raise the angle to remove the burr thus allowing me to not create a more obtuse angle in the process.

The big thing to remember about doing this is that you have to return to a stone following the wood to apply that really crisp super sharp edge.

For a super-duper final finish on knives sharpened on waterstones I strop at a slightly increased angle to remove what little residual burr may be still hanging on as well as to create the tiniest micro-bevel/primary bevel possible.


--Dave--
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The edge should be sharp at all stages of grit, it is far easier to deburr a 1000 grit edge with a 1000 grit stone than a 5000 grit one. If you wait until the last stage a very heavy burr can form which is difficult to remove. Especially on various stainless steels, and coarse and soft steels in general.



This is not a good idea, the burr is formed of debris and weakened steel, if you knock it off it fractures/compacts against the solid steel on the edge. Cut it off with the stone, optimally do it with each grit. The only reason to ever do that is when the burr is so large and problematic it will not come off on the stone, some really cheap stainless can do this, especially with files.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

So you knock the burr off with the stone at slightly higher angle and not with the Strop/Hone? Or piece of old cardboard box?

DR -with the balsa can you see metal particles from the burr? Do you just pull the knife toward you? I understand there are many different strengths of balsa, some very hard.
 
DGG,
I don't know much about woods but the block of balsa I've been using is really soft. Sometimes I see metal and sometimes I see only swarf.

I think I'm going to try some different types of wood to see if I can get better (more consistent) results.

This is just my latest greatest thing I'm trying and there will always be something better. :)


--Dave--
 
Climb14er said:
Use the 1000 stone to remove the burr (couple of passes, raised angle) that set up on the 1000, then move to the 5000, lightly sharpen/polish...then remove that burr with same stone, raised angle.
Click to expand...

Yes, all stages should be sharp, it is much faster to hone a very sharp 1000 grit edge on a 5000 grit stone than one with a burred or cracked edge. The amount of deburring you have to do depends on the steel, some of the knives I have don't tend to burr very much at all and thus I don't actually do a deburring step, some do heavily and it has to be a large part of the sharpening and they are near impossible to sharpen on ceramic rods.

I guess the wood was knocking off the burr before I was 'finished' and I ended up both times with polished/rounded edges.
Click to expand...

I would say there is too much damage done by the block. Carter works primarily with low alloy and very hard steels with fine grains and a low carbide structure, these don't raise much of a burr and the block is likely only removing sharpening debris similar to rinsing the blade and wiping on paper to remove all traces of one grit before increasing, to avoid contaminating the stone.

D_R_Sharpening said:
...without having to raise the angle to remove the burr thus allowing me to not create a more obtuse angle in the process.
Click to expand...

This is honed off, it doesn't remain on the blade. Goddard leaves it on and argues that since it is so tiny and only has 1-2 passes it won't significantly effect performance.

-Cliff
 
Often I don't have to do anything at all to get rid of the burr. It seems that the slush on waterstones prevents the worst. I also try to avoid to raise to large a burr on the coarser stones. But every once in a while I get a rough spot with some leftover burr that I just can't get rid of. This is when I raise the angle. Usually I use a diagonal stroke for that, mostly because it gives me the best control, but I usually go tip to heel, it just the motion that I am used to by now.
 
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