What am I doing wrong?

[IIO0DQLE]

Hi, brand new to sharpening here and I just got a brand new Recon 1 spear point and a DMT Dia Sharp Fine stone. I started off sharpening free hand and found that I suck so bad that I ended up with two angles on my edge bevel, a sort of unintended micro bevel from the middle of the edge bevel going to the apex. That’s when I decided to get the DMT aligner to help me get a consistent angle. The left side of the blade looks fine and is coming along nicely. However, for some reason, with the same setting (3rd notch) on the aligner for the right side, the width of the edge on the right side is approximately a full millimeter thinner and the angle looked bigger. I dropped the setting on the right side one notch (2nd notch) and ended up with a similar width on the edge as the left side but it is not uniform and is wider by the curve of the belly. I don’t know why the edges would not be uniform on an equal setting and why I had to drop the setting down one notch on the right side to get a similar width on the edge. It doesn’t make sense to me but it worked, sorta.

Before I dropped the aligner one notch on the right side, the knife wasn’t cutting paper cleanly and after I made the adjustment, I saw an improvement in cutting paper. Much cleaner and effortless cutting. It still doesn’t shave hair but I don’t know if I can achieve that with the Fine stone. The knife shaved hair from the factory. Thoughts as to what is happening here and what I’m doing wrong? I do a choil to tip edge leading movement. I reset and do the same motion. I don’t go back and forth as I find it’s harder for me at this point to keep it consistent if I try to go back and forth.

P.S. I know I need to work on my movement when it comes to the tip of the knife.

 

[M. Johnwell]

I'm not certain exactly what you're doing wrong without watching you sharpen, but looking at the tip, it appears you're going under angle which means you wouldn't be apexing. Try putting some sharpie on the edge and practice removing it all evenly, and if you can't get all of it evenly, getting it more towards the apex would be more important at this point in your sharpening. Secondly, try using less downward pressure. I've not used diamond stones, but for every other stone I've used, the less pressure the better. Good luck!

 

[Sadden]

So did you raise a full length burr with your coarsest plate?

 

[IIO0DQLE]

I've been doing the Sharpie thing and right now I'm not apexing because I had a wider angle at first and I reprofiled it a bit to be a steeper angle. I see that I have a thin line of sharpie left at the apex.

Sadden - I don't know. I've read quite a bit about the burr but I'm not sure I see or experience it. I also did not use a coarse stone, just the Fine DMT stone. I've also read JasonB.'s thread "The Burr".

Just to clarify, what I'm confused about is why I ended up with uneven width with my left/right side edges with the DMT aligner set at the same settings for each side. And I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong when I sharpen the right side in that the edge of the blade near the curve is wider than the rest of the edge bevel.

 

[Sadden]

I've been doing the Sharpie thing and right now I'm not apexing because I had a wider angle at first and I reprofiled it a bit to be a steeper angle. I see that I have a thin line of sharpie left at the apex.

So your not all the way to the edge of the edge. The increase in width is occuring near the tip due the thickness behind the edge getting thicker closer towards the tip. Move the tip of the knife closer to the blade clamp on the dmt aligner.

Sadden - I don't know. I've read quite a bit about the burr but I'm not sure I see or experience it. I also did not use a coarse stone, just the Fine DMT stone. I've also read JasonB.'s thread "The Burr".

You will know it when you see/feel it. Use the coarsest stone in the kit until you get all the way to the edge of the edge and raise a full length burr before you even think about using any of the other stones in the kit. You are wasting your time with the fine.

Just to clarify, what I'm confused about is why I ended up with uneven width with my left/right side edges with the DMT aligner set at the same settings for each side. And I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong when I sharpen the right side in that the edge of the blade near the curve is wider than the rest of the edge bevel.

It can be quite a few things, slop in the rod guide, uneven blade grinds, technique. I can tell you why the edge is getting wider towards the tip though, see above.

So in short:
Set the aligner at 20dps on both sides
Move the tip closer to the blade clamp
Use the coarsest stone in the set
Raise a full length burr down both sides
Grind the side that has a smaller bevel until it is even (or close to) the other side
Deburr using the technique described here

Then you can start going up through the finer stones.

 

[Wowbagger]

I'm confused about is why I ended up with uneven width with my left/right side edges

First off let me say I love sharpening guides . . . well . . . my Edge Pro anyway.

Next let me say : Welcome to the knife world. I fight the same thing. Problem is at the factory they hand hold the blade to a belt, or maybe a grind stone, and then a power buffing wheel and they try to make it look good / even and often they make the blade actually pretty decent and sharp this way.

Then

You and I try to duplicate these angles using a jig and things go horribly, horribly wrong.
I'm exaggerating.

But yes . . . there are probably two different angles there and they just went for making the width of the edge bevel LOOK similar / the same.

so

What you got to do is set your jig for the steeper of the two angles and use that on both sides.
Assuming you are being careful when you clamp your aligner onto the blade and it isn't you causing the discrepancy.

I feel your pain though. Some days I just want to go at it the way they do and call it good.
Mostly I'm kidding. I really like working through several grits and creating a polished edge bevel that looks like evil jewelry that is actually useful.

I just got set up to do it the hack's way. Actually the blue stone is for grinding blades thinner and the paper wheel with diamond grit on it is for sharpening my ceramic knives . . .
but it would be easy to go over to the dark side and grind the edge and power strop it.

Don't do it . . . resist the temptation . . . follow the one true path and sharpen with flat bench stones. or your aligner .
It's not the easy way . . . but it's the Cowboy Way.

 

[Alberta Ed]

It might help to start with a coarser stone, DMT red (medium) or blue (coarse). But I think you're on the right track.

 

[cap'njake]

I have had something similar happen before on knives that were ground wrong from the factory. Might be your angles are actually the same but the angles on the actual blade itself might not be right. If you have a caliper you can check that pretty easy. Just compare the lines up towards the spine of the blade to the other side. If they are the same then it is something you are doing if they are different then it might just be the blade

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[IIO0DQLE]

So your not all the way to the edge of the edge. The increase in width is occuring near the tip due the thickness behind the edge getting thicker closer towards the tip. Move the tip of the knife closer to the blade clamp on the dmt aligner.

Do you mean to sink the spine of the blade deeper into the clamp or reposition where I clamp the aligner on the blade to be closer to the tip instead of where I have it right now which is near the handle?

I don't have a coarse stone right now but will get one when I can find a good deal.

Just to clarify, I am using bench stones and using the aligner as the guide, dragging it on the table when I sharpen. I don't have the kit with the rods.

 

[IIO0DQLE]

After more practice and observation last night, I think that I didn't need to drop the right side down one notch on the aligner. I think that doing that is what caused the wider scrape pattern on the curve near the tip. Or it could also be what Sadden said or a combination of both. I kept doing the Sharpie trick, and noticed that it was just scraping off too much on the right side compared to the left with the lower height that I had the aligner set at on the right side. I moved it back up and even with the left side and paid closer attention to my hand movement and I think they're pretty close on both sides now. I think I just need to hone my technique more.

I think I'll get a coarse DMT so I can fix the edge profile, keep it even on the aligner settings and see what that does.

Thanks for the replies all.

Alberta Ed - I'm from Edmonton. Nice to see a fellow Albertan here.

 

[Sadden]

Do you mean to sink the spine of the blade deeper into the clamp or reposition where I clamp the aligner on the blade to be closer to the tip instead of where I have it right now which is near the handle?

I mean clamp it closer to the tip, further away from the handle.

Alberta Ed - I'm from Edmonton. Nice to see a fellow Albertan here.

Im in Grande Prairie myself,

 

[IIO0DQLE]

Oh cool, I didn't notice you were from AB! Thanks Sadden I will try that.

 

[IIO0DQLE]

First off let me say I love sharpening guides . . . well . . . my Edge Pro anyway.

Next let me say : Welcome to the knife world. I fight the same thing. Problem is at the factory they hand hold the blade to a belt, or maybe a grind stone, and then a power buffing wheel and they try to make it look good / even and often they make the blade actually pretty decent and sharp this way.

Then

You and I try to duplicate these angles using a jig and things go horribly, horribly wrong.
I'm exaggerating.

But yes . . . there are probably two different angles there and they just went for making the width of the edge bevel LOOK similar / the same.

so

What you got to do is set your jig for the steeper of the two angles and use that on both sides.
Assuming you are being careful when you clamp your aligner onto the blade and it isn't you causing the discrepancy.

I feel your pain though. Some days I just want to go at it the way they do and call it good.
Mostly I'm kidding. I really like working through several grits and creating a polished edge bevel that looks like evil jewelry that is actually useful.

I just got set up to do it the hack's way. Actually the blue stone is for grinding blades thinner and the paper wheel with diamond grit on it is for sharpening my ceramic knives . . .
but it would be easy to go over to the dark side and grind the edge and power strop it.

Don't do it . . . resist the temptation . . . follow the one true path and sharpen with flat bench stones. or your aligner .
It's not the easy way . . . but it's the Cowboy Way.

lol Thanks!

 

[IIO0DQLE]

Actually, I was just thinking, if the reason for the wider scrape/edge on the right side of the blade by the curve is due to the thickness of the blade and where the aligner is positioned... then how come it only affects the right side and not the left? I'm starting to think that the biggest factor here is the lower height of the aligner on the right side when at that time before I raised it back up to be even on the left side.

 

[Sadden]

Actually, I was just thinking, if the reason for the wider scrape/edge on the right side of the blade by the curve is due to the thickness of the blade and where the aligner is positioned... then how come it only affects the right side and not the left? I'm starting to think that the biggest factor here is the lower height of the aligner on the right side when at that time before I raised it back up to be even on the left side.

It is definately a contributing factor.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

Right now you are basically reprofiling the edge. That takes time and a good amount of metal removal. If you just want to sharpen the knife you could do so without so much effort.

Raising a burr is how you know both edges have met. But I think most people think you have to raise this great big wire burr that is visible across the room and that isn't the case. And that actually is wearing down the blade a lot quicker than necessary as that is lost metal you aren't getting back. With a little practice you can feel the burr before you can see it and using magnification and good light will let you see it quicker.

However, if you don't let your knife get terribly dull and touch it up frequently then you don't need to raise a burr. If you touch it up when it's just starting to quit shaving hairs, you know both sides are very close to meeting and if you alternate sides with every stroke, you will quickly have them meeting in a sharp edge that you can then work on refining. A Spyderco Sharpmaker is good for this.

You also probably want to read up on microbevels if you haven't already. If you raise the angle a few degrees on each side and put on a micro bevel you will also quickly get the edges to meet and I personally don't raise a burr anymore with a micro bevel. I've seen burrs quite a bit bigger than most microbevels. But if you let your knife get really dull a burr is probably the best way to get back to sharp though minimizing it is still a priority IMO.

All this is why I'm really liking the carbide rich 'super' steels. They seem easier to sharpen and I can get them screaming sharp without a lot of fuss. Softer, lower alloy steels still give me problems and trying to get a tree topping edge is just a waste of time, again, IMO. You have to chase the edge and fight off burrs to get a really sharp edge that just doesn't last long. Better off leaving it at a coarse finish that barely pops any hairs off but has aggressive micro serrations that cut pretty good.

It can definitely be a pain learning burr then one day it will just click and you start getting great edges. Though there will probably still be certain knives or steels that will give you fits and try your patience.

Good luck!

 

[IIO0DQLE]

Well, I took a break from sharpening knives as I wasn't getting the results I wanted and couldn't get a coarse DMT stone locally. I recently picked it up again and was having the same issue I posted originally here on this thread 2 years ago. lol Anyway, I bumped into this blog post and I finally had an "Aha!" moment! I thought I'd share it here in case somebody bumped into this thread as this is a common issue.

http://www.oldawan.com/blogging/im-...arpening-with-my-wicked-edgewhat-causes-this/

I think the main reason I was having uneven widths with my bevels on the left vs right side of the blade was due to reprofiling the edge on the left side of the knife and working too much on it, causing the apex of the edge to move past the midline, which is reason #1 as per the blog post linked above.

Also, I couldn't quite grasp Sadden's advice to clamp closer to the tip and just today, I bumped into this Youtube video and now I get it!

If the primary bevel is thicker near the tip, then the stone would impact the metal sooner hence you end up with a wider bevel.