What am I doing wrong

V

Vlade

Joined
Feb 8, 2020
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Good evening gentlemen, I sharpen my knives on a work Sharp guided sharpening system with the tristones, two are diamond and 1200 is a finishing ceramic. The problem I'm having is after I use the 1200 ceramic the knife is extremely Sharp but then when I get done stropping it. It seems duller. I use leather dry to strop. Could it be the dry leather causing the edge to roll or could I be applying too much pressure ? I don't think I am though. Or should I quit after the ceramics they do make the edge a polished edge. Any suggestions or input would be appreciated. Thank you in advance
 
Sounds like your rolling the edge over with incorrect angle or too much pressure or both. I would use the leather on a flat surface like a table top or wood board. I would also replicate the stroke your using on a finishing stone. Strop on the lowest grit stone or plate you have. Ink the edge and after you strop look to see where the edge is wearing.
 
Oh okay I didn't know you could ink The edge to strop. I think that'll fix me up thank you for your knowledge. Definitely going to try it
 
The most common reason for what you describe is that you may be lifting the edge of your blade at the end of the stropping stroke rather than keeping it level. Just lifting the back of the blade a little will roll the edge as it leaves the strop.
 
Out of curiousity, what steels do you notice this on? I’ve found that some steels produce a harder burr to get rid of than others
 
It's just a cheap simple 420 HC. I think I might stop trying to get them any sharper than I can on my guided system. They are extremely sharp after I use it. But I'm also trying to get them sharper for some reason. They will shave after I get done with my work sharp system. It could be I am expecting too much?
 
You may not need to strop depending on the level of sharpness you’re wanting to achieve.
Take into consideration the edge geometry and how much steel is behind the edge. If it’s thin, then yes, stropping could very well be rolling the edge.
I don’t have much experience with 420, so I don’t know how much of a wire edge could be left after sharpening, and that’s where stropping comes in. I’ve always thought about it like this, all I want to do is remove any wire edge that may be there. So, I’ll do a few passes on each side just holding/guiding the knife without applying any pressure if that makes sense.
 
For an every day use edge on a fairly basic steel such as 420HC, try finishing on the fine diamond stone and nothing after that. You might be surprised. Your edge will be very sharp and will last longer than trying to achieve a polished edge.
 
No need to strop it if it’s sharp. Especially if it makes it duller….
 
Hmmmmmm , I don't know your sharpening procedure !

A) I like to first create a bur - Sharpen to the very apex .. SO you create a full length bur both ways .. This way you know you have a perfect bevel ( well , as near as possible )
B) You can
1) Go to a fine polish from here
2) Dual grit
3) Coarse grit
4) Some funky stuff

B) Once you are sort of happy with the edge finish
1) You may wish to implement a process for Bur minimization
2) Generally you do this as you finish each grit

Minimizing Bur

As I am about to finish each grit - If your going for a polished edge ?
I like to do a sharpening pass each way for a total of 10 passes ( TO minimize that bur )

On the other hand , if you are fixed grit sharpening ..
Then once I have created a Bevel ..

I then do 20 passes one way ( both sides but 20 sharpening strokes at a time )
Then 10 passes one way
5 passes one way
2 passes one way
followed by 10 passes , one side / one pass at a time .. ( So one pass on one side , then the other side one pass and so forth for a total of 10 passes )
It this point , there is little to no bur ..

Then I strop the knife ...
If the knife goes dull , then yes your doing it wrong ! ( The proof of the pudding )
If say you sharpen at 20 degrees ( lets just say )
Then you should probably strop at 15 degrees .. I already posted a video on stropping by Outdoors55 .

But as you sharpen your knife , you need to introduce bur minimization / removal .
This way , stropping will just make the edge better , not worse .
Something is NQR with the process ATM .
 
How are you determining sharpness, by feel? Cutting paper?
I find what feels to be super sharp after sharpening is actually deceiving. I get a sticky edge that seem sharp but isn’t clean. After stropping the edge may feel not as sharp to the touch because it’s cleaner and smoother. That edge for me cuts better and longer.
 
Oh it's sharp that's a fact. I was going for the polished edge. I get through all the grits perfect the knife is sharp will shave, I guess I'll just going to have to keep trying to learn how to do it the right way (stroping). I usually just try to shave a patch of hair off of one of my arms that's how I determine if it's sharp or not. It's definitely Sharp. You know what they say practice makes perfect. Thanks a lot for the input fellas. Italian you may be right about that it makes sense what you said.
 
old4570 said:
Hmmmmmm , I don't know your sharpening procedure !

A) I like to first create a bur - Sharpen to the very apex .. SO you create a full length bur both ways .. This way you know you have a perfect bevel ( well , as near as possible )
B) You can
1) Go to a fine polish from here
2) Dual grit
3) Coarse grit
4) Some funky stuff

B) Once you are sort of happy with the edge finish
1) You may wish to implement a process for Bur minimization
2) Generally you do this as you finish each grit

Minimizing Bur

As I am about to finish each grit - If your going for a polished edge ?
I like to do a sharpening pass each way for a total of 10 passes ( TO minimize that bur )

On the other hand , if you are fixed grit sharpening ..
Then once I have created a Bevel ..

I then do 20 passes one way ( both sides but 20 sharpening strokes at a time )
Then 10 passes one way
5 passes one way
2 passes one way
followed by 10 passes , one side / one pass at a time .. ( So one pass on one side , then the other side one pass and so forth for a total of 10 passes )
It this point , there is little to no bur ..

Then I strop the knife ...
If the knife goes dull , then yes your doing it wrong ! ( The proof of the pudding )
If say you sharpen at 20 degrees ( lets just say )
Then you should probably strop at 15 degrees .. I already posted a video on stropping by Outdoors55 .

But as you sharpen your knife , you need to introduce bur minimization / removal .
This way , stropping will just make the edge better , not worse .
Something is NQR with the process ATM .
Click to expand...
Thank you for that sir. I think my problem might be that I am pulling the leather and using my other hand to strop on the leather. I'm going to cut the belt and tack it onto a flat 2x4 and see how it goes from there, I got a habit of never being satisfied with my edge sharpness. Practice practice practice. Thanks again
 
If your looking for CRAZY sharp ..
I recently started stropping on cardboard ..
I figure , if cardboard can destroy an edge (?) , why can't U use it to create an edge .
Cardboard polishes to a small degree .. Polishing is material removal . ( TIme consuming )
But the result feels like a micro bur , so I leather strop after and the edge smooths out ..

Now for that buttery smooth slicing :
I got some Autosol polishing compound .. It speeds up the polishing - A Lot !
Been doing Autosol on cardboard , and the black streaks that get left on the cardboard .
Been meaning to do a video ...

THe process can be easily used to sharpen a dull knife . As long as you have a decent bevel to work with ..

The resulting edge though ... If your after polished and sharp ...

Work on your stropping angles .. Because you should be able to strop a worn edge back . Especially after the knife has had a nice clean bevel put on it .

Don't forget the marker pen trick .. If your having problems the magic marker can help track down the issue .

And if your stropping on a sharpener .. Change the angle about 5 degrees steeper and push away from the edge . never strop into the edge ! ( Unless it's a 10,000 grit oilstone )
 
Vlade said:
It's just a cheap simple 420 HC. I think I might stop trying to get them any sharper than I can on my guided system. They are extremely sharp after I use it. But I'm also trying to get them sharper for some reason. They will shave after I get done with my work sharp system. It could be I am expecting too much?
Click to expand...
Simple stainless like 420HC, at low-medium hardness (mid-high 50s HRC), will tend to form ductile burrs that won't necessarily come off easily when stropping. Additionally, ceramic hones will also be more prone to generating those burrs on steels of that type, if you go too far with the ceramic.

I think you're dealing with a sharp, thin burr that was created on the ceramic in pursuit of polishing, and it's not coming off easily on the strop. Instead, it's likely rolling over, which dulls the edge. Burrs can be extremely sharp and can shave hairs. But they're weak and they'll fold over easily on a steel like 420HC.

As 777 Edge suggested earlier, try finishing on the diamond alone, using the lightest touch you can manage. Skip the ceramic altogether for now and try some light stropping on the bare leather, after the diamond.

Having said the above... It IS POSSIBLE to do some effective refining with a ceramic on 420HC. But you have to be careful about not overdoing it on the ceramic, i.e., don't strive for polish. A ceramic is useful on 420HC for very light-touch deburring or microbeveling with a minimum of passes (2-3 per side). I use a medium or fine ceramic for just such things on the knives I carry everyday - usually Case and/or Buck knives in 420HC. I set the edge on those knives to a fairly toothy bite, using either a diamond in XC, Coarse or Fine (220 / 325 / 600) according to preference, or sometimes on a Fine India stone (360 - 400), then apply a very minimal microbevel using a medium or fine ceramic (Spyderco or Lansky). That combination leaves a great, aggressive slicing edge on those 420HC blades.
 
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David, do you find leading or trailing strokes on ceramic produce a difference at that level of final deburring?

Reason I ask is, some of my knives seem to “prefer” a trailing stroke.

Parker
 
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