What causes the periodic ballyhoos... from a Yellowneck perspective

W

Will Leavitt

Joined
Jul 28, 2006
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There are periodic dust ups on BF that sometimes turn nasty to the point of Hatfield vs McCoys, cats vs dogs and PETA vs my daily meals. I scratch my head and tickle my brain trying to figure out the root cause (work habit, part of my new job is basically a process engineer) on how such a tightly knit group gets so fractured at times. Sadly sometimes the pain is so great that we lose people from our sub-forum.

I feel the basis of most of these fights boil down to a single word........ integrity. I was taught as a young Soldier that "integrity is what you do when no one is watching." We toil alone in our caves, sometimes we gather to work together but eventually we all learn that the craft is a lonely journey.

Integrity is the heart of the "science vs art". Science based makers challenging the techniques of the art based makers. It's not an outright integrity check but both sides feel that their techniques used to make the best blade THEY can make for THEIR customers. Change hurts, change implies you're wrong and change isn't always for the best.

Integrity is the heart of the somewhat usually tongue in cheek "smith vs stock removal" maker arguments. People arguing over the integrity of producing the best blade for their customer. We all chose our path based on making OUR best blade, challenge that and you challenge the integrity of our choice.

Integrity is the heart of the "kit knife/customizing blades from pre-made parts vs makers" argument. Most of us started out making kit blades. Hell, most of us sold those kit knives but the customer knew exactly that the blade was from someone else and I put on handles and guards. The outrage isn't from their pricing or perceived lack of work, it's the lack of integrity. If/when the customer finds out the whole craft is suspect.

When a prospective member of our craft enters the door and starts getting blasted they need to understand the anger. We may argue amongst ourselves but we will band together to protect the integrity of the craft. Besides the obvious artisan pride of this reaction there's also a sound economic reason.... when someone starts selling "custom/handmade/kit" knives with no integrity they damage the business end of the craft. They sell a misrepresented blade it reflects on all of us. The next time the rook hears of someone getting ready to buy a "custom knife" they'll tell the story of how they bought one and it was a POS and they'll never do it again.

You smith blades, do it with integrity.

You do stock removal blades, do it with integrity.

You assemble kits, blades from custom parts, do it with integrity.

The path in the craft is wide and wandering, there is room for all.
 
Heck, I thought it was just spring fever. Let's not forget that makers tend to be a stubborn bunch... not me of course, I'm not stubborn I'm just right. :D

In all seriousness, I do see your point and agree.
 
Will, I couldn’t agree more, and I really wished that being honorable and living with integrity is all it took, but human beings are human beings and in reality, although we don’t want to admit it, another old saying holds far too true- “nice guys finish last.”

I am not saying that I don’t strive continually toward the integrity you outline, but one can see it everywhere from knifemaking to across the political landscape of our country. Soft spoken, politeness and reason fades into the background while or shouting and ill mannered demagoguery is rewarded with fame and a loyal following. Write a letter to the editor of a newspaper that is a reasoned appeal to logic backed up entirely with facts and it will line a bird cage by the end of the day. But stand outside town hall with a sign covered with mindless bumper sticker invectives while hurling threats, venom or rocks at any passerby and you will make nationwide TV.

Celebrities have learned that the more outrageous their behavior the more followers they can attract and the longer they can stay in the headlines. Old style class acts like Liz Taylor, who had to make it on their actual talents, literally have to die to get on the front page with reprobate train wrecks like Charley Sheen.

Why is this? It is not the fault of the rabble rouser, the loudmouthed jerk, the corrupt politician, Liz or even Charley, the blame rests with us for rewarding bad behavior with a following. If we want to improve this situation we need to draw some integrity from Edmund Burke and expect more from those seeking our respect.

How we approach an internet forum requires integrity for it to be a positive community. Are we here to benefit from the talents of other artists or are we here to be entertained? If it is entertainment, then we should not be surprised if we are often treated to a pro wrestling bout instead of constructive dialogue. A common line about “popcorn” is often used when things get ugly, and this is very significant. In real life if you saw somebody picking a fight would you be in the crowd that cheers it on and “pops some popcorn” or would you be one of the few that steps in to stop it because they value constructive conversation over cheap entertainment? Many a forum has lost good people because they were there to help others not amuse them.

Much of this type of talk revolves around a single more recent issue, but we really can’t pick and choose what offenses we will be selectively outraged by and even application of integrity would go a long way towards remedying a much more endemic problem. This forum is not the same place it was 5 years ago, something has definitely changed and, since a forum only consists of those who participate in it, that something would be us.
 
Kevin,
I'm honored that you spent your valued time to craft such a thorough answer to my poor attempts at trying to get everyone to calm down and understand what's happening and what will happen to this forum. Most people on this forum do not have enough time on BF to understand the loss of knowledge that departed in the aftermath of our arguments.

I spent a loooonnggg day forging with Charlie and Matt, at the end of it Matt mentioned how nice it was to work with other makers even though there are some hiccups due to the nature of working with different equipment. It's lonely in our shops. If you put most of us in a big building with grinders and forges we'd wander around learn and be fairly happy.

I generally use the anecdote to explain the learning in the craft. At Batson's a couple years ago there was a crowd gathered around a young man (not a demonstrator) most of the smiths gathered were wearing the semi official of smiths, jeans, boots, John Deere or cowboy hats. The young man was covered in tatoos and piercings, he was holding forth on mosaic damascus, one of the older smiths asked him about a type of welding that I ummmmm only understood the word "welding." The young man said "we've tried that process and got trippy results." All the men nodded and more than a few of them wrote "trippy" in their notebooks. How many other crafts are people willing to learn from people their grandchild's age?

I sadly watch as our forum goes the way of the general public. I can't step in via pixels other than my poor prose.
 
Will Leavitt said:
The outrage isn't from their pricing or perceived lack of work, it's the lack of integrity. If/when the customer finds out, the whole craft is suspect.
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That, in a nutshell, is my beef.
I feel that integrity is very important in ALL aspects of life.

Very well reasoned and written posts by both Will and Kevin.

Thank you gentlemen.
 
it is unfortunate that our little corner of this forum has often turned into a dogfighting pit of late, on the good side, I waste less time here that I could be spending in my shop

-Page
 
It has been my experience that ego is at the root of this problem, and several others that plague forums such as these. People take pride in what they do and in their profession at a more general level. When someone else (who does less or does it differently) claims the same title or professes to be "just as good", it sets the ego on edge... and the ego MUST defend itself, lest it disappear in puff of anti-ego.

Sadly, I don't think there is a cure for this. People who invest time and effort developing skills have a right to be proud of their accomplishments. It's when that pride manifests itself as disdain for the work of others that it becomes ugly, and in turn generates defensive ugliness in others.

We must each take responsibility for how we present ourselves and our behavior, both public and private. When we fail to do so (and simply blame the other guy for making us do something improper), we lose touch with reality and become part of the problem.
 
Ah, I like this thread... Thought I'd mention something about how I used to poke a stick in and rattle it around a bit to see if that would get me more attention (no such thing as bad publicity, right?). I don't do that anymore, actually try to go the other way a bit if I can. It feels better that way, and there are classier ways to get attention. Also I try to avoid getting drunk and logging on... that helps!
 
Quick Testimonial.

I came to this website looking for info on buying a knife. I found this sub-forum, and through the general attitude, and friendliness decided that I too could make a knife. I just knew if had troubles along the way, that help would be easy to come by here. Turns out I was right. It is very refreshing lurking around this sub forum compared to those of the rest of the "World Wide Web" :P

Let us remember to try and be the bigger people. It takes two to tango so they say. Kill em with kindness, and let's keep this forum the way we all enjoy, it open and informative.
 
Great thread! I couldn't agree more Will. I haven't been on here that long, but I really enjoy the knowledge and kinship that is shared here.

-Dan
 
I don't know anything about what's gone on in this forum in the past, but I'm finding myself generally drawn to it more and more, due in large part to the fact that people seem to be extremely willing to help each other out and learn together. It's too bad that some bad apples taint it through their own skewed views, but it doesn't look to me that the core of this forum is anywhere close to rotten.
 
I'm one of the argumentative sorts, I suppose. I have only one intent and purpose and that's to get the best information possible out there. I don't really care about all the rest, but it burns me that people come around looking for answers and sometimes get nonsensical or even dangerous rhetoric. I took more than one forum post full of misinformation to heart when I first started making knives and some of the lessons were hard learned. I'm no expert, but I'll tell people what I know (and what I think) and I don't always dress it up first.
 
An interesting look at the topic we are discussing, ignore the title and read on, it really spells everything out why some people do what they do.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/

This is very interesting, check it out.
 
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acridsaint said:
i'm one of the argumentative sorts, i suppose.
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you suppose?!?!??!?!

Understatement of the year, assmunch!:D:D:D
We're going to need to talk to Angelo about this...

Got news for ya folks - this isn't limited to this forum, or knifemakers, or knife people in general... it's people. We're all this way, and that's just how it is. This subforum has lost more knifemaking greats due to this effect than I'm comfortable with. I recently searched for something and stumbled across a WIP thread from 2007... not only was the originator of the post out of here, but so many of the other posters, as well. This is the ebb and flow of life, nothing more. To believe that there is a Golden Age is merely viewing through rose colored glasses... to the guy just signing on here, this IS the Golden Age!!!! If you can't see it that way, it means you've been here too long, likely just as I have...

Nice guys don't finish last, Kevin. That's just our way of justifying our position to ourselves. It hurts to say it, but I'll finish last because I'm a loser in the eyes of the majority - that same majority I've done everything in my life to distance myself from, anyway.

Now, whether or not that makes me a nice guy, or a bad guy, or even a loser or a winner really depends on the place I've chosen to view it from, doesn't it?
 
Matt, your honesty and forthrightness is one of the things which make this forum great, at least in my eyes.
 
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