What combination of sharpening gear?

G

ghost squire

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Feb 1, 2004
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I'm in a bit of a quandry. I have been debating for the past several days what combo of sharpening gear to get and I was hoping you guys could help me!

Basically my goal is to get a hard, relatively thin carbon steel knife as sharp as physically possible without laserbeams.

Here are the following combinations I have pondered (I already have a ~220 grit and a ~600 grit stone):

-1200, 8000, strop (with Cro paste of course), 3m PSA sheets
-1200, 3500 natural blue mountain, 8000, strop, 3m PSA sheets
-1000, 4,000 grit, 10,000 ice bear stones, no strop, PSA sheets

I was thinking that anything above 10,000 is almost pointless if your going to be using the 0.3 micron and 0.1 micron 3M sheets because the scratches left by 10,000 grit stones would be erased in a few seconds of edge trailing on the 0.3 micron sheet right? Or am I off here, is it more that the scratches of the 10,000 would simply be polished, and to get the sharpest possible edge I would have to use something above 10,000?

And of course I would be purchasing a nagura stone and a norton stone flattener.
 
Razor Edge coarse hone
Sharpmaker with optional ultra-fine hones

Or an EdgePro Apex with all of the extra stones plus the 0.3 micron aluminum oxide sheets for use on the tape blank.

The first option will cover a wider array of knife styles and the second will still cover most and give a higher level of perceived control.

Both options will cost less than a good set of waterstones and glass covered with SiC paper or film will cost less than the Norton stone flattener and be able to be used with a wider array of stones.

Neither option will be as fun as playing in the mud with the lower grit waterstone.
 
I'm with Thom on either the SharpMaker or the Edge Pro, since I have both. I have gone through the the entire range (except for Waterstones): Lansky, Razor Edge clamps, Arkansas Benchstones, SharpMaker and Edge Pro Apex.

After all of the above, it basically comes down to this. You can not beat the SharpMaker for it's price point. As Thom stated, get the UF rods. But, you will need to get a good coarse stone if you need to remove lots of metal. For this, I suggest the DMT DiaSharp coarse.

Now, after you've done this for awhile, Sharpoholism will start to set in and you'll want "that little extra zing" on your edges. That's where the Edge Pro comes in. It simply can't be beat for quality, performance, and consistency.

So, spare yourself the agony, and start with the SharpMaker. It's the best starting point around, and even if you go with the Edge Pro later, you will still depend on the S/M for touch-ups.
 
Ehhhh... I don't know.... I checked on the grit level of the fine ceramic and its 6.5 microns (? is that right), thats really not acceptable to me to go to an abrasive 70 times finer then the previous one. That definately seems like you would simply be polishing the scratches left by the previous abrasive and I don't want that. I want the PSA papers to establish their own independent scratches as much as possible.

Plus how well will other systems work on a knife with a rockwell hardness of 63-68 rockwell hardness?
 
ghost,
I'm answering this with my idea of how to get an edge closest to the sharpest edge I know of.

I'm referring here to waterstones unless otherwise noted.

You first have to shape and reduce the width (thickness) of the edge bevel so you'll use that 220 stone of yours. I prefer something coarser like a DMT XXC plate or a 120x stone but your 220x will work fine - it will just take longer.

Then you'll want to follow that with something around 600x, then 1000-1500x, then 4000-5000x, then 8000-10000x, then 12000-15000x, followed by stropping on a leather hone charged with chromium oxide and then finishing on PSA 0.3 micron paper.

You can jump from 8000x to the leather hone with no problem but the edge will be sharper (and more polished) if you go through some finer polishing stones before going straight to either the leather hone with chromium oxide (0.5 microns) or the 0.3 micron PSA papers.


--Dave--
 
D R Sharpening, thanks man! I don't think anyone can debate your knowledge of sharpening, I had no idea you posted on these forums, I've checked out your website before and found some great information on stropping that helped me a lot. I had it all wrong.

OK, that basically confirmed my thoughts, thanks. So what I'm going to do is buy a 1,000, 4,000, 10,000 set from Ice Bear (do you know anything about these stones, are they any good? I don't have enough dough for the Shaptons), and some 3m paper... I'm going to have to hold off on the 15,000 grit Shapton and Hand America strop for later, though I will definately buy them.

Do you know of any circa 15,000 grit waterstone other then the Shapton that costs less?

PS does anyone know what their 30,000 grit stone is used for?! Thats the 700 dollar question.
 
Hey ghost,
Thanks for the compliment but I'm no expert, just a professional, if you know what I mean. ;)

I haven't used the Ice Bear stones and I can only recall hearing one person say they used them and liked them.

Have you looked at Norton's waterstones?
Toolsforworkingwood

Craftsmanstudio

TheBestThings

I haven't used these either but they're supposed to be a close second to Shapton but at a fraction of the price.


For a polishing stone over 8000x I would look at either Kitayama Super Polishing Stone -12000x (which is actually a 8000x stone that finishes like a 12000x) or the Naniwa Super Polishing Stone - 10000x. Both of these stones are very soft and require good technique to use so to avoid gouging the stone but the same technique would also have to be used on the super hard Shapton 15000x to avoid rounding over the edge.

On the Shapton 30000x - I can't say a thing besides I'd love to try it and report back but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. :D


--Dave--
 
GS: Your first combination is more than sufficient to get a excellent edges. The second set is very close to something I use and with which I am very, very happy. However, since you are inserting the 3500 grit stone inbetween the polishing stone and your medium stone, I would probably consider going to a slightly coarser grit for the medium stone like 700 or 800, but that is up to you. I would say that the PSA sheets + stop are overkill. If you get really good on the stones, you really don't need strop or anything else. However, while you are still practicing, the strop is very nice for the final touch. It pretty much guarantees a very sharp edge, even if you are not perfect on the stones.

Instead I would advice investing in Murray Carters sharpening DVD and maybe some lapping equipment (easiest would be a coarse DMT benchstone). Also, the sets that your looking at are "advanced" enough that I would start investing in the "character" of the stones as well, especially on the finishing stones. From my own experience, I have to say that I would choose ANY waterstone over pretty much any other type of stone, but even among the waterstones there are differences. In many ways the differences are as much tactile as they are varying in quality. I found that I was very happy with a faily soft stone like the Naniwa, while I wasn't so happy with Shapton 5000 (a bit difficult to compare since they are not the same grit). The King stones, while still a very decent stone I found it to be much slower cutting and the 6000 grit a little "soapy" feeling.

Good luck in your selection process.
 
D R, its going to be tough deciding between the Norton's and the Ice Bears...

When you say that the 12,000 grit kitayama finishes like a 12,000 but is actually an 8,000, what do you mean? Does it actually leave scratches at the 12,000 grit level? Of the Kitayama and Naniwa, which would you recommend as a final step before going to the PSA sheets?

HoB, your right a coarser grit is needed, I do already have a 600 grit and 200 grit though.

I'm fairly experienced with the stones I have I suppose... I can get and maintain a very consistent edge angle that is only very slightly convexed (barely noticeable). The main problem I have is that the finest stone I own is a 600 grit, so no matter how good my technique the blade will always be so so in sharpness.

I am getting the Murray Carter DVD from Kellam Knives soon...

I know what you mean about the waterstones, I just love working with mine, for some reason I just feel satisfied after I sharpen something with waterstones. Its less like sharpening to me then it is like creating something out of wood.

PS I don't have experience with finishing stones or very soft stones, do I start using edge trailing at around the 4,000 grit mark?
 
Well, honestly, it is really up to you whether you prefer edge leading or trailing. Whatever works best for you. It depends a lot on body mechanics, too. Personally, I like to use trailing strokes on any medium that is soft enough to allow the blade to bite into the medium, independent on grit size.

I very much doubt that you really need a finishing stone (6000 grit and above) to transition to the PSA sheets. I would see those sheets more as an alternative to the finishing stone. Up there it becomes all a little subjective and I would see it more as a matter of personal preference and what works best for you. From 6000+ you are getting a mirror finish anyways, so I wouldn't simply equate a 10000 grit stone to a sharper edge than a 6000 grit stone. Its more how the stone feels, how it cuts and what results you get. Most stones in that range were made to emulate natural stones anyways, which don't have a precise grit rating.

Verhoeven mentioned in his abstract that the Kitayama 8000 actually leaves a scratch pattern that was not finer maybe even coarser than the 6000 grit stone tested.
 
You know you're probably right about not needing finishing stones, but I'm crazy!

I was looking for the Suehiro Deluxe stone he mentioned and couldn't find a single mention of it online, only a regular Suehiro 6,000 grit stone. Though the grit in Kitayamas are supposed to get much finer the longer you polish in a session cause the grit is supposed to break down.... Maybe Verhoeven simply didn't crush the grit enough?
 
I've used the Kitayama but not the Naniwa. The Kitayama is listed on Japanwoodworker's site as a 12000x stone but I'm relatively certain that the company doesn't list it that way themselves. I believe they show it as an 8000x stone and don't even produce a 12000x stone. Other dealers (besides JW) who sell this stone list it as 8000x - not 12000x.

As for the finish it produces it is superior to the Shapton Pro 8000x stone. The trick is to build up a slurry using a nagura stone and then work this slurry without rinsing the stone off. The particles will get finer and finer and will produce a cloudy but very sharp edge.

I know of a couple of folks who have used the Naniwa 10000x and report it to work similar to the Kitayama with the exception of providing a better (visual) polish with a slightly softer working surface as in it gouges very easy. This stone is on my personal wish list.

You can use either edge leading or trailing strokes but on the softer stones you will want to glide on the push and apply pressure on the pull. This is just the opposite of what you do on a harder stone.


--Dave--
 
ghost squire said:
D R Sharpening, thanks man! I don't think anyone can debate your knowledge of sharpening, I had no idea you posted on these forums, I've checked out your website before and found some great information on stropping that helped me a lot. I had it all wrong.

OK, that basically confirmed my thoughts, thanks. So what I'm going to do is buy a 1,000, 4,000, 10,000 set from Ice Bear (do you know anything about these stones, are they any good? I don't have enough dough for the Shaptons), and some 3m paper... I'm going to have to hold off on the 15,000 grit Shapton and Hand America strop for later, though I will definately buy them.

Do you know of any circa 15,000 grit waterstone other then the Shapton that costs less?

PS does anyone know what their 30,000 grit stone is used for?! Thats the 700 dollar question.
Click to expand...

ブランド / kumagoro / Ice Bear is a registered treadmark of Harmia enterprises. They make kitchenware and knives and some stones http://www.harimaent.co.jp/l-waterstones.html They may also have something to do with the kumagoro woodworking chisels and probably have Matsunaga King make another series of carpenter's stones for those as well. Vassili (aka Nozh202 here on BF) has one.

As for the Kitayama mentioned elsewhere, it is 8k grit but you build up a slurry and let it thicken and polish on the slurry paste which fractures into smaller grit particles and leaves about a 12k grit polish. Near as I can figure, 8k is about 1.2 microns, 12k is about .98 micron and 15k should be about 0.8 microns, which would put Shapton's 30k stone at about 0.4 microns (somewhere between 1/2 micron chrome oxide and 0.3 micron Linde A rock polish or 3M microfinishing film, so you could think of it as a hard razor strop (it is recommended for fugu knives, razors and barber tools among other things). If you lived in Japan you could pick one up on sale for about $300 if you looked hard enough, but you won't find them that cheap on this side of the pond so you could stick some of that 3m film on a hunk of glass or the label side of a Shapton 15k stone. Shapton also makes a more traditional (non resin bonded like the kuromaku/pro )12k stone (M15 series), then you know about the Ice Bear 10k and there is a very soft Naniwa 10k super stone (very nice at polishing but soft enough you almost have to use an edge trailing stroke like a strop).

If you get the Ice Bear 10k please let us know how hard it is... the Naniwa is soft enough that you can scratch it with a fingernail (though still much harder than a strop), while the Shapton is so hard it is like sharpening on a hunk of glass... something between those two extremes would be nice.
 
I got the stones in last night, and to answer your question yuhuza, I would say the Ice Bear 10k is an exact happy medium between the Kitayama and the Shaptons.

You cannot scratch it with a fingernail, but you do have to be careful sharpening edge leading on it because you can gouge the stone if your not careful and press to hard.

Overall the feel of the 4k and 10k Ice Bears is... greasy. They are very smooth and rather soft, they polish very quickly. You can see the trails of gray metal left by the knife on both, and periodically have to remove it so it doesn't block the abrasive action by clogging the pores. This is done with the nagura provided with it. Its pretty hard to get a slurry that you can polish on without touching the stone though. At least with a nagura.

Waterstones in general sharpen very quickly I would say, compared to an arkansas stone I have. I went from a dull edge to 220 grit, to ~400, to ~600, 1,000, 4k and 10k in about 5 minutes and when I edge trail stropped on 0.3 micron abrasive paper... The edge was a mirror polish with no scratches and no divots under a 100x microscope.

The finish the 10k leaves is like looking at a lonnnngggg huge cornfield with lots of rows, looking down them lengthwise from a 747 at 30,000 feet. It does leave visible scratches under a 100x microscope but they are EXTREMELY uniform and very very tiny, you have to focus your eyes correctly to see them even at such a high magnification. I was amazed at how uniform the scratches were. The stone doesn't seem like an abrasive to the touch, and the dried slurry left by it is akin to chalk.

The 0.3 micron paper leaves no visible scratches and it makes the edge glow to the eye and microscope. It is like looking at something more perfect then any mirror. It also cuts quickly, leaving gray remnants of metal dust on the 3m paper immediately after one begins sharpening. With about 10-15 passes per side it was a perfect and uniform mirror polish on the edge. Not suprising considering the grit is barely above the size of particulate cigarette smoke. Despite what was mentioned on another website, the polish is very uniform for this paper.

The 1k Ice Bear is my favorite stone overall. For one thing it goes from a greyish color when dry, to a beautiful dark forest green when wet. It cuts quickly, and leaves a very good combination of toothyness and polished edge. Of course thats subjective, most people consider 1,000 grit to be the highest they will ever go and an extremely fine and polished edge. However obviously the higher grit stones leave a more polished finish, and it is noticeably easier to slice newspaper the higher the grit goes.

I was able to push cut newspaper with my Opinel easily after the 3m paper. On a slice there is literally no noticeable resistance. If you couldn't see or hear I doubt you could tell the difference between moving it through air.

Notes: Tools for Working Wood is an excellent company. Their customer service was great, they sent a confirmation email after I placed the order, which gave me a tracking number so I could track the package and a link to the website to enter it. It arrived on the exact day they said it would, 4 days from when I ordered it. I paid about 12 bucks shipping, not bad for delivery that fast for a 10 pound package.

I would highly recommend Ice Bear stones. I was worried that the 1,000 and 4,000 would be too soft, but they were just perfect. The company strikes a perfect balance between grit size/softness/cutting speed. Every stone appears to have been specifically engineered for its grit size. The 10k leaves a very fine and uniform finish (the grit uniformity is simply amazing), and is not soft enough that you have to use edge trailing. I have used several other companies waterstones, although not extensively, and I can honestly say that I recommend these the most. I have not used Shaptons or Nortons however. And I don't plan to now! :)

Thanks everyone for your help!
 
ghost squire said:
I was able to push cut newspaper with my Opinel easily after the 3m paper. On a slice there is literally no noticeable resistance.
Click to expand...

You can get push cut on newsprint after 600 DMT if finished well. It will catch a little, you will feel resistance, but it can be made to cut with no draw at a 90 degree contact about 1 cm from the point of contact. The sharpest edge I have seen is 1200 DMT + 0.5 microm chromium/aluminum oxide, based on the thread/cotton cutting and hemp push/slice.

In general, for truely optimal performance, if you have a way to do it, raise the angle slightly when you change grits. This *vastly* increases efficiency, but is near impossible to do my hand. However even 1-2 degree increases make a large difference, and generally you only need 2-3 grits. I typically use 200 Silicon carbide + 1000 AO plus finishing abrasive.

-Cliff
 
I always add a microbevel when I go from 10k to 3m, but you're saying I should always do it?

How can one go about getting an edge that sharp from a 600 DMT? Do you just keep the angles really even or something?

Right now the Opinel is only at 100 grams on the poly thread test, so I must be doing something wrong. I'm sharpening at about 10 degrees per side if that matters.

Help!
 
It is more efficient that way, I don't do it because I don't use guides, but it makes honing and resharpening very efficient time wise. In general it isn't necessary to go back to the shaping hone, I only do that in comparisons to make sure I am always getting fresh steel on the edge.

As for optimal sharpness, sharpening consists of three steps; shaping to get the right thickness/angle, grinding the bevels to meet in a consistent line, and finally getting that intersection straight and even, with a consistent scratch pattern and free of debris.

It is the last part which is the difficult bit. A few years back I would have thought 100 grams was really sharp, 1-2 years it would have been acceptable, now for a high polish at a minimum I want around 90 and this is at 20 per side, if I am honing low I am aiming for around 50.

It is mainly due to Spyderco, on average Spyderco is well under 100, they better ones average around 75 and they are usually 10-15 per side and on the coarser grained stainless, so the better tool steels at low angles should be much sharper.

The main issue is burrs, in the last few months experimenting with Clarks method and just focusing more on burr removal in general I have been seeing better initial sharpness and even getting decent results even on diamond rods which in general I have found problematic.

You also want to clean the edge periodically, all that crap on the edge from the coarse stone will get in the way and keep getting smashed into the edge because the abrasive will hit it as well as the steel you are trying to sharpen. The biggest crutches that most people have when starting to sharpen is relying on finer stones, or worse yet stropping or steeling to sharpen.

Even the more coarse grits should be very sharp, once you get this down, the same methods applied to the finer grits will increase their sharpness significantly and all of this greatly increases edge retention. A really highly tuned edge on a decent steel will blow past just a decent edge on a high end steel for a lot of cutting.

-Cliff
 
Well.... after an hour more of sharpening I got it down to 50-75 (I'm using a scale that uses 50 gram increments) grams. Its 50 on some parts of the blade and 75 on others.

You're right, I am using the higher grits as a crutch, the problem is I just need to work more on getting consistent edge angles. Unfortunately right now literally every knife I have has been butchered in that regard so I would need to reprofile them.

I know what you mean by consistent scratch pattern free of debris, I now have taken to washing every stone before use, then washing the knife, my hands, the workstation and the next stone before I switch over. Otherwise I hear this horrid scratching sound while I'm on a stone that shouldn't have that noise.
 
Interesting, just calibrated the scale/thread combo and got a result of 100 grams force necessary for a Bic razor blade...

If thats true then the Opinel should push cut paper easier then it is now...
 
The force depends on the type of thread, 50 grams on the baisting thread I use is insanely sharp, above the ability to shave above the skin. I have seen Spyderco blades NIB be that sharp, but it is rare. Spyderco's better blades average at around 75 and this is really sharp, well past shaving.

In general the larger the stone the sharper the blade, I think it has to do with pressure distortion. I spent some time yesterday comparing blades sharpened on a 600 DMT rod vs a 600 DMT plate and the results were consistently higher for the plate across three knives and four sharpenings each.

You also have to take care to check the sharpness in several places and make sure you are getting a consistent edge along the blade. The thread of course only checks a minute part of the edge, a small fraction of a mm. I usually do about a dozen checks on a small blade/

-Cliff
 
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