What constitutes a natural patina?

J

Joneserlax

Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
25
Hey guys,
I've recently wanted to put a patina on a 1095 and M4 blade(yes, I do know they will take a patina differently). I've been looking through the forum and have really loved a lot of the natural patinas I have seen, like this:
1322779526-P1010240.JPG

Now, my two main questions the search feature and various forums haven't answered for me:

What constitutes a natural patina?
&
Details on how how to achieve this patina. Specifically preventing rust, and approx. time an application sits.

To elaborate:
I see many guys using (of course) fruit and vegetables on their knives, esp with culinary blades. But by favorite has been beef blood. I've heard guys talk about the reactions they have gotten by purposefully putting a patina on with beef blood.. Now does this still count as a natural patina, or is this forced?

This question is important to me, because it leads to confusion on how to achieve this without rust. Is a typical natural patina done on a blade that NEVER has an oil or protection on it? Is there a safe way to do this? Or are people doing this in timed increments, or details I'm not aware of. My only experience has been with mustard patinas that usually take a few hours or lime/vinegar/etc patinas that may take a few applications & less than 20 minutes total time. The blade is THOROUGHLY degreased, the patina is applied, and then the blade is washed and wiped with oil.

But building a natural patina or how that is typically (and hopefully safely) done, isnt something I'm knowledgeable in.

Much appreciated, thank you
 
Chemically patina is Fe3 O4, rust is Fe2 O3.

I get a neat patina by using hot 14% alcohol white vinegar. Plunge the blade for some minutes, stop the chemical reaction by rinsing it , wipe the blade. I have never seen any rust on my carbon steel or low alloyed tool steel after that treat.

Apply some grease on the pivot, there's no need to patina that part of the blade.

dantzk.

P.S. : Sorry, i've misread your post and mine is not relevant. I've never got good results, esthetically speaking, with natural ( given by usual tasks) patina, dark spots randomly placed. Cutting any acidic stuff will patina a non stainless steel and will preserve from rust but i've never experienced a neat patina this way.
 
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Thank you for that Dantzk :). I guess I will just carefully experiment with fruit and blood and see what happens, which is the best way.

Still interested in any info on how people go about letting a natural patina form in terms of application, protection, rust prevention, etc. Or, perhpas how I could achieve a beef blood patina purposefully and safely, wait time for application, etc. I really have no info on this

Thanks guys
 
Technically, I suppose the way to get a "natural patina" is just to use the knife for many years and allow it to slowly build over time.

If you're dunking the knife in vinegar, sticking it in a grapefruit, or anything like that ... then I suppose you would call that a "forced patina."

But who really cares? If it looks good and helps to prevent corrosion that's good enough for me.
 
I never heard of patina till this forum. I think we refered to it as "weathered".
My understanding is, patina developes with age and exposure to the elements. Quick staining is just, stain.
 
Eat a lot of steaks, use the knife and don't wash or wipe it down 100% each time.
 
Thank you for the help guys! :)

I'm going to chime in as well; I ask lots of long detailed questions and may sound inexperienced (Compared to some I am - I'm 24 and still learning), but really I just want as much depth as possible. I do know about the subject, and have experimented a lot with it.

I understand the concept of a patina on raw steel, and it's development. That it's oxidation which can be forced, or build over time. And that its actually extremely similar to rust and by nature then helps prevent the corrosive kind of rust from forming. I sometimes will see more vivid colorful patterns when the steel is "mirror" polished, but I feel that the ones I see that set in the best or take the darkest are on satin metal. Not sure if they would hold up better with use

What I want to know is how people would build a patina over time without rusting. After an incident with M4 steel and mustard for a few hours that left pitting, I'm a bit cautious. Kootaga13 I'm grateful or your reply - is the knife or steel in question that could handle this something like superblue or more like 1095? I'm not sure how long a blade could go without being wiped down and not rust.

So this is the detail I'm craving. I usually will look to PH sclaes for help, and I'd think something less acidic (steak compared to vinegar) would form more slowly and therefore could set over time more safely. I would opt to wipe the blade a bit after a little while, but not sure how long to give. Or I've heard of people saying they hit it with water after and undisclosed :confused: amount of time, and then let that sit a bit longer. I'm confused about the process. Like I said, this isnt as simple as letting mustard sit and then cleaning off.

What I would like to do, is get some attractive blues/purples that I see in some beef blood patinas. Unfortunately often when I see an amazing patina, these are the people that dont actually reveal everything they did.. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...a-vs-Natural-Patina-Here-is-my-Behring-custom


And beyond that I'm wondering if these type of patinas would even last or just turn grey
 
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Quite a variation in times recommended (taken from http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/archive/index.php/t-1335.html) -

"Personally, I cut rare steak and sit the knife to the side for about five minutes. Come back and wipe up and you should have a pretty cool blue thing going on all ready"

VS

"I like to start my blue patina by cutting some meat cooked medium-rare and then I leave the knife in the block for about a week with no mineral oil coating so that the patina has a chance to set in."
 
I can't say that I've ever forced a patina on a knife...I just use it. The more it's used, the better it gets. The concept is interesting, though, since when I buy a new knife, I want it to look like a new knife. If I buy an older used knife, I want it to have signs of use. I sure don't want to see a brand new knife with forced patina, unless it's gun blued.

That being said, eat steak, and use the knife often.
 
I think you're on the right track. I wouldn't use steak sauce with the knife if it was me. That's a whole different animal.
 
Just use the knife on food, wash, dry, and occasionally oil it like you would if you were just using a knife for stuff and not trying to form a patina. Cutting up an apple with your lunch, for example. That will end up being a natural patina.

If you want it all nice and even, then use hot vinegar just below boiling. Use a microwave safe glass and heat up some distilled white vinegar, enough to cover your knife blade up to the tang/handle, then dip your degreased blade into it for about 20-30 seconds. It will turn black. Take it out of the vinegar, rinse under the faucet, then wipe off with a paper towel (a lot of black will come off). Repeat if desired until it is the color you want. Then rub with a mineral-oil soaked paper towel (which may remove some more of it) and you are done. That is a "forced" patina.
 
Was a Carpenter for too many years. My 22oz Estwing hammer got a great Black patina to it from years of sweat, gun oil, water, blood, and dirt. It never did rust as there was always some nuematic oil on it. Years later I tried to clean the hammer up, but there was no way any of that was coming off.

I realize just by the nature of working with a knife processing wood and various tasks around camp that gloves will be worn most times, but sooner or later that natural patina will show up, in mean time keep oil on to keep rust off and just use that knife ... alot! =)
 
Huh okay.. Thank you guys, I guess I'm starting to understand it better now. See I'm obsessive, so I've gotten "black" (usually dark grey with use) patinas down pretty well :thumbup:, and I've gotten some cool effects with vinegar for a mottled gun blue - grey - orange on a mirror polish blade. I've used gun Cold Blue no problem. But the idea of a natural patina, what would encourage rust, and the use of oil was totally confusing for me.

See, I've had plenty of 1095 blades that NEVER got a patina because they were always thoroughly cleaned if used on food. OR, they had oil, ballistol, or flitz (wipe on and buff off = incredible moisture replant) and wouldnt touch food.

I've been taught to THOROUGHLY degrease, but I guess some oil now and then is necessary? If I was to use warmed up blood, how long would you guys let it sit? And would you wipe it, totally rinse it, or actually oil it eventually?

Thank you guys for all the help and patience :)
 
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And no I'm not really concerned on it being even. What I really love the look of is this (done with blood as well) -

mtpatina1.jpg


But, I can tell it's the result of degreased and cleaned steel that has been freshly hit with the blood. And I guess rinsed off just enough to get a cool pic. Seems that would wipe away and grey out with more use, so I settled for the original pic which I felt looked more stable/durable.
 
What constitutes a natural patina?
Click to expand...

Well . . . when I cut up fresh tomato (my favorite patina elixir) with my M4 . . . that is bordering on creating a natural patina . . . but when I then walk away and let the juicy juice sit on the blade while I eat and clean up before washing the knife . . . that is boarding on, well that just ain't natural . . . and yet the fact that I cut up organic tomatoes . . . THAT . . . that has to count for something and perhaps is just enough goodness to pull the whole diabolical operation BACK from the brink just short of bringing about ragnarok.
 
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