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What constitutes "heavy use"? Abuse?
- Thread starter Steve6
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 17, 1999
- Messages
- 98
According to Benchmade, it is if you use your knife for anything but cutting.
If you want to find out what real abuse is, read the knife tests done by Cliff Stamp and Fred Perrin.
BTW, that is not a criticism of the above named gentlemen, only an observation about their testing methods.
If you want to find out what real abuse is, read the knife tests done by Cliff Stamp and Fred Perrin.
BTW, that is not a criticism of the above named gentlemen, only an observation about their testing methods.
- Joined
- Jul 2, 1999
- Messages
- 1,347
If a company or warranty does not explain what the knife is or is not capable of, then I would say abuse is anything other than cutting.
If a company specifically states what it's knife is capable of, no matter how abusive it may sound, it is not abuse. In this mater, anything beyond what they have stated, would be abusive.
Would you consider choping wood with your machete, abuse? No. How about choping wood with your fillet knife? Yes, unless the maker says it can do it.
Abuse depends largely on what the knife is designed for and more importanty what the maker clams it can do.
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Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
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"only the paranoid will survive"
[This message has been edited by TheMartialWay (edited 03 December 1999).]
If a company specifically states what it's knife is capable of, no matter how abusive it may sound, it is not abuse. In this mater, anything beyond what they have stated, would be abusive.
Would you consider choping wood with your machete, abuse? No. How about choping wood with your fillet knife? Yes, unless the maker says it can do it.
Abuse depends largely on what the knife is designed for and more importanty what the maker clams it can do.
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Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
-------------
"only the paranoid will survive"
[This message has been edited by TheMartialWay (edited 03 December 1999).]
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1999
- Messages
- 551
I've always felt that knives should never be used as a pry bar. A lot of people seem to do this with their knives and I just don't understand the reason behind it. Some people will take a tapered 1/8th thick blade and try to open stuck drawers or remove metal straps from shipping containers. I've also heard of knives being used as entry tools (opening doors for entry into houses by police or SWAT). What's that all about? Don't they carry real pry bars?
Do people ever use rifle barrels as pry bars?
Knives should be used for cutting. They would not have sharpened edges if they weren't.
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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.
William Least Heat Moon
Do people ever use rifle barrels as pry bars?
Knives should be used for cutting. They would not have sharpened edges if they weren't.
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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.
William Least Heat Moon
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 76,860
Some knives are designed only for cutting soft materials, and using those knives for chopping wood or stripping the insulation off wire (let alone cutting wire) or any but the lightest prying would be abuse.
Other knives are designed for chopping and splitting wood and bone, cutting wire, heavy prying, digging, etc. It is not usually difficult to distinguish the two kinds of knives, but some people seem to be unaware of the existence of knives designed for heavy use, and sometimes they wander into threads discussing such knives and get confused. I guess if the word "knife" means to you something designed only for cutting, like the penknife in your pocket, and you've never seen a Uluchet or a khukuri or a bolo or even a Ka-Bar, it's natural to think all the things people use such knives for are incredibly stupid abuse ... they would be abuse if you tried to do them with your pocketknife....
There are some knives that would be difficult to do anything with that could reasonably be called abuse. They're designed to hold up to any use a remotely sane person might put them to, on the battlefield or in the woods or jungle. With few exceptions the makers of that kind of knife don't put any "abuse" exception in their warranties at all, or if they do they limit the definition of "abuse" to things not even a remotely sane person could expect a heavy-duty knife to survive intact.
People who only use a knife for cutting soft materials don't have any interest in whether a knife can take heavy use, of course. Sometimes it seems strange to them that anyone would care whether a knife can split an elk's pelvis or chop hardwood or pry open a door or even a computer case without chipping and breaking ... they don't use knives for things like that and don't understand why anyone else does. They're often the same people who don't understand why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for a knife that doesn't look pretty, too....
-Cougar Allen :{)
Other knives are designed for chopping and splitting wood and bone, cutting wire, heavy prying, digging, etc. It is not usually difficult to distinguish the two kinds of knives, but some people seem to be unaware of the existence of knives designed for heavy use, and sometimes they wander into threads discussing such knives and get confused. I guess if the word "knife" means to you something designed only for cutting, like the penknife in your pocket, and you've never seen a Uluchet or a khukuri or a bolo or even a Ka-Bar, it's natural to think all the things people use such knives for are incredibly stupid abuse ... they would be abuse if you tried to do them with your pocketknife....
There are some knives that would be difficult to do anything with that could reasonably be called abuse. They're designed to hold up to any use a remotely sane person might put them to, on the battlefield or in the woods or jungle. With few exceptions the makers of that kind of knife don't put any "abuse" exception in their warranties at all, or if they do they limit the definition of "abuse" to things not even a remotely sane person could expect a heavy-duty knife to survive intact.
People who only use a knife for cutting soft materials don't have any interest in whether a knife can take heavy use, of course. Sometimes it seems strange to them that anyone would care whether a knife can split an elk's pelvis or chop hardwood or pry open a door or even a computer case without chipping and breaking ... they don't use knives for things like that and don't understand why anyone else does. They're often the same people who don't understand why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for a knife that doesn't look pretty, too....
-Cougar Allen :{)
To me, the primary use of a single bladed knife is to cut. Some knives are designed with features which would enable them to be used for additional tasks; I have a Glock knife with a bottle opener for a blade guard, nice feature! That knife is designed to also open bottles so using it for that would not be abuse IMO.
Also, I have other knives which have "hammer pommels". Apparently these knives can serve as hammers in a pinch and hammering with one would not be considered abuse IMO.
It seems to me that abuse consists of using a knife (or any tool) for;
1. a task for which it was not designed and 2. a task which is likely to cause damage to it.
For example, a Randal #2 with an 8" blade was not designed to be used as a butter knife, however, using it for that would not constitute abuse as it is not likely to damage the knife.
The point I was trying to get at in my original post (which I apologize for failing to make clear) is; What is "hard use".
I'm sure the butcher knives at the meat market get a lot of use but does that constitute hard use?
Does using a CS Trailmaster for chopping constitute hard use or is that just normal use for a knife of that type?
So, to the folks that have posted that "X knife has been used and used hard and has held up just fine", what is it that represents hard use?
BTW, this doesn't include Cliff because he has always included exactly what he's done to his knives, hell he even admitted he bit one to see how it'd hold up.
[This message has been edited by Steve6 (edited 03 December 1999).]
Also, I have other knives which have "hammer pommels". Apparently these knives can serve as hammers in a pinch and hammering with one would not be considered abuse IMO.
It seems to me that abuse consists of using a knife (or any tool) for;
1. a task for which it was not designed and 2. a task which is likely to cause damage to it.
For example, a Randal #2 with an 8" blade was not designed to be used as a butter knife, however, using it for that would not constitute abuse as it is not likely to damage the knife.
The point I was trying to get at in my original post (which I apologize for failing to make clear) is; What is "hard use".
I'm sure the butcher knives at the meat market get a lot of use but does that constitute hard use?
Does using a CS Trailmaster for chopping constitute hard use or is that just normal use for a knife of that type?
So, to the folks that have posted that "X knife has been used and used hard and has held up just fine", what is it that represents hard use?
BTW, this doesn't include Cliff because he has always included exactly what he's done to his knives, hell he even admitted he bit one to see how it'd hold up.
[This message has been edited by Steve6 (edited 03 December 1999).]
Steve6:
Here's a link to our site for the Uluchet, the word is a combination of ULU (an Alaskan native tool) and a hatCHET which is exactly what the Uluchet is.
BTW, some of the DEA boys are carrying the Uluchet for use as a forcible entry tool.
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P.J.
P.J. Turner Knife Mfg, Inc.
Uluchet, What's an Uluchet? Find out at...
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg
Here's a link to our site for the Uluchet, the word is a combination of ULU (an Alaskan native tool) and a hatCHET which is exactly what the Uluchet is.
BTW, some of the DEA boys are carrying the Uluchet for use as a forcible entry tool.
------------------
P.J.
P.J. Turner Knife Mfg, Inc.
Uluchet, What's an Uluchet? Find out at...
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
Prying and chopping are generally hard use. Anything that permanently damages the blade is abuse. The line between the two depends more on the thickness of the blade and edge than anything else, and it really isn't that hard to guess what will damage a blade. Knife blades are just bars of steel, and surprises are few, not unheard of, but few.
Allen Blade
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 29, 1999
- Messages
- 498
Hello,
Grind and edge geometry does come into account on the total overall knife, but without a proper heat treatment and proper
thermal tempering cycles ,why bother?
I think a "HARD USE" blade is one where you the user Subject it to such use, the question then becomes can this knife do the task i put before it. I think its kind of a mis-interpetation to Lable a Knife a "HARD USE " knife, when any knife can become such an animal if called upon to do "HARD USE" work.
I have made Survival Emergency shelters with a 4-inch Drop point hunter, testing this blade to see if it would take it, sure it did, and it was hammered on with Clubs to split poles, Used as a boring device, and to make field expediant weapons out of the natural Fauna. So i guess at those moments in time it was a "HEAVY USE" knife, Although it required more Actual use to accomplish the tasks than say a larger blade would have required it still performed to the Level of the Big blade by still completing the task`s.
but like i mentioned, in my opinion if you have a blade to soft for its specific alloy,
or if you have a blade that is to hard for its alloy,,,,there is no way you will get complete total Performance levels out of it no matter if it is, hollow ground, flat ground, thick ,thin, ats-34, 5160,D2, 1095 or whatever else you can put in the mix.
Whithout the proper Heat treat you might as well Plan on spending alot of time being disapointed.
My opinion only
Allen Blade
Grind and edge geometry does come into account on the total overall knife, but without a proper heat treatment and proper
thermal tempering cycles ,why bother?
I think a "HARD USE" blade is one where you the user Subject it to such use, the question then becomes can this knife do the task i put before it. I think its kind of a mis-interpetation to Lable a Knife a "HARD USE " knife, when any knife can become such an animal if called upon to do "HARD USE" work.
I have made Survival Emergency shelters with a 4-inch Drop point hunter, testing this blade to see if it would take it, sure it did, and it was hammered on with Clubs to split poles, Used as a boring device, and to make field expediant weapons out of the natural Fauna. So i guess at those moments in time it was a "HEAVY USE" knife, Although it required more Actual use to accomplish the tasks than say a larger blade would have required it still performed to the Level of the Big blade by still completing the task`s.
but like i mentioned, in my opinion if you have a blade to soft for its specific alloy,
or if you have a blade that is to hard for its alloy,,,,there is no way you will get complete total Performance levels out of it no matter if it is, hollow ground, flat ground, thick ,thin, ats-34, 5160,D2, 1095 or whatever else you can put in the mix.
Whithout the proper Heat treat you might as well Plan on spending alot of time being disapointed.
My opinion only
Allen Blade
- Joined
- Nov 6, 1999
- Messages
- 2,639
PhilL,
I'm pretty sure that cutting down a tree with one's head could only be accomplished by someone with as sharp a wit and as thick a skull as yours.
Paracelsus
I'm pretty sure that cutting down a tree with one's head could only be accomplished by someone with as sharp a wit and as thick a skull as yours.
Paracelsus