what do you guys say about this??

Dan Gray

Dan Gray

Joined
Jun 25, 2001
Messages
8,474
kcardwel said:
new site on line is at http://www.kershnerknives.com He uses stock blades(good quality of course) and creates some beautiful work. I am doing the page for him. His leatherwork is of the highest quality as well.
Click to expand...

personally I can't see him calling himself a custom knife maker?? :grumpy:
a custom handle maker I agree..
he makes handles for knives ,,a knife is the blade, and On his site he should say where the blades come from..
I'm sorry it's just the way I feel about it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>edited to add a kink to it..

there are fine lines being crossed in ethics I think in some places but not all.

you have like Freeport Knives they don't make knives they just sell knives, cool.
you have mass Manufactured like Buck and they do make some Customs,
they are Buck knives not billed as Buck custom knives.
Randall has blade makers, handle makers, sheath makers ,
Russell's dad I believe made custom knives hence the name, I don't believe the son does,
he buys them and places his name on some of them if not all of them,
if I'm wrong tell me so..
now a (BUT)
if you are known to have others make your knives for you why not add
your name to them? it's being done all the time and a big business too.
but to imply you are
so and so custom knives,
are not the knives he sells still custom knives?

I can debate most anything

if you buy a store bought knife ready to handle all treated, sharpened and ready to go
and you regrind the whole blade from stem to stern and completely refinish it
is it your blade or not??? :confused:
is there a difference between that and having Paul Boss heat treat a
bar of steel for you then you grind it,
you'd just have less materiel to remove.. right??
thinking this way you make a knife out of a working bandsaw blade is
it still a bandsaw blade and/or belong to the company that
used it/or made it?? I'm going to add this to my first post.
very interesting posts will come of this I think..
 
I didn't see where he called himself a knifemaker, although he calls the end result custom knives.
In the not too distant past he would have been called a "hafter".

Personally, I don't like this stuff, and feel it confuses the heck out of people. They buy a "custom knife" from him, and find out later that it's just a hafted kit knife, and they get mad at all custom knifemakers. :grumpy: :mad:
 
I know there are a number of people who started their custom knife careers building kit knives. If it gets some people started that later turn out to be great makers then I could support the concept. But I think most people who would use a kit blade to build a knife may not have the ultimate dedication to grow into a true custom maker; if someone really wants to be a "knifemaker" I think they would be very unlikely to use someone else's blade.

On the other hand, this gives someone who is interested in the idea a chance to see if they "have what it takes" without spending a ton of money on specialized tools. So I've always seen these blades as basically okay if kept in their place. Personally I've never been tempted to use one - if I want something I make it myself. And I think most people who are likely to take up the craft long-term probably have a similar approach.

So my little sermon out of the way, I have to say anyone who would call building a kit knife "custom" does not understand what we're doing. And worse, they blur the line for already ignorant purchasers to the point it devalues the work of actual custom knifemakers. I take offense to this guy claiming to sell custom knives - that is just plain dishonest. He sels custom knife handles, like Mike points out. It burns my keester that somone who doesn't know any better will compare his price for putting a handle on a kit blade to that of truly original work, and think the real knifemaker is overpriced. All we can do is constantly try to educate our customers (and potential customers). And write to dipspits like this guy to tell him he is exaggerating his work.

:mad:

(boy, there's an emoticon I don't use much)
 
I cannot speak for another knife maker, nor do I seek to sit in judgment of others.

All I can do is speak for myself and so this is what I believe:

When I hand a knife that I made to someone to look at, I can look him or her in the eyes when I say, "This is my work"

There is no hidden secret in the back of my mind, no hope that the person will not ask me about how I made some part of the knife.

I know my blades that I show are not very good compared to the knives of others I know. My knife only shows in many ways that I have a lot left to learn about making a knife.

But it's MINE! I made it, I forged the steel in my own forge, I took steel that was in a different shape and I formed it with my hammer into the shape of a knife. I made the knife out of something that came to me not looking like a knife at all.

I can only speak for myself, but it would be always embarrassing for me to always have to explain to every guy holding my blades that "I didn't do the blade, I just made the handle"
 
Dan ,you put a handle on a blade for me ,remember ? LOL I do agree that a 'custom knife maker' implies that he makes blades and handles and perhaps even sheaths. This handle maker should list himself as just that a 'handle maker' or 'custom handle maker'.
 
I pretty much agree with Mete. With some exceptions. I really don't care what he calls himself as long as he makes an honest and full disclosure about the parts in the knives.

After all, I know very few gunsmiths even though they all call themselves that. They are mostly parts replacers. Give one a bucket of steel and tell him to build a rifle and listen to the response.

We have all hafted other peoples blades. We just don't claim them as ours.

My best example is (pardon me for having a senior moment because I can't remember his name) the fellow in the southwest who rebuilt (he's dead now) buck knives with silver and turquoise. (That makes me mad that I can't remember his name, I have 2 of his knives)

anyway...they are true custom knives IMHO and he was a superb craftsman. He just didn't make the knives or claim to.
 
Hey guys look under the "about me" part of his sight. He pretty much comes clean, but in a way that might be misleading to people not familiar with custom knives.
Kyle Fuglesten
 
Example for you to answer:

I have a Rambo II knife. I love the look of the curves of the blade. I love the teeth cut into the spine. I just think that the blade is a very cool design.

However I hate the handle. I hate every inch of the handle. I don't trust the handle to even stay attached to the blade if I were to swing the blade into a 2X4 as hard as I could.

I was thinking that I would replace the handle with one of my own handles I make out of a block of Micarta. Now lets say I do, and I bring the finished blade to work and a guy asks me if I made it.

How do I answer?
How do I tell the guy that although I did not grind the blade at all, I meant to improve the blade with a new type of handle?

How do I say all this?
How do I tell the guy how much work went into my handle design without looking like I was cheating on the blade?
_________________

This is an important question for me as I wish to always stand behind my own knives with pride, and yet I really like my Rambo knife, except for the darn handle?
 
DaQo'tah I think I'd say, "This is a Rambo knife that I rehandled." And then, if there was any interest, point out the improvements in your handle over the previous one.

On the handle guy;s site, it's pretty obvious that he uses pre-made blades - he comes right out and says so, adding they're "quality" blades. This is honest. What burns me is that run-of-the-mill non-knife people would not make the distinction between what he sells and what the makers here sell, and might judge a true maker harshly because he charges an honest price that happens to be several times the price of the other knife. And to my in-no-way-humble way of thinking on this issue, that is a huge difference. It's hard enough to get the unitiated over their sticker shock, without people like this clouding the picture.

I think we've found a chink in my generally fairly polite nature, for which I apologize. :o You see these knives on eBay all the time claimed to be "custom" or "handmade." Sometimes I've thought about writing those guys and giving them a piece of my mind but fortunately reason has always prevailed. The truth is, most of those folks probably have poored their heart into the handle job and I have no wish to hurt anyone's feelings. In fact, nurturing these guys might end up in creating a great maker some day.

So now I'll shut up and mind my own business.
 
DaQo'tah, I do it from time to time and the answer is always the truth. I didn't make the blade or whatever I didn't make. I have a sword that I am quite proud of. I found the blade in a neighbors garage that he had cut the tang off and welded it to a piece of pipe so he could use as a scythe.

I bought it from him for $1.00 and forged a new tang. The blade was already reflexed and was thick. I did a convex grind from the tip to the end of the reflex and tapered into a flat grind the rest of the way. It handles and cuts like a dream.
When asked about this I tell them the whole story and I expect it is often more then they wanted to know.

I have ranted about this before and the impact the "custom makers wannabees" have on the true knife makers. this really disturbs me when it comes to the true knife smiths that depend on their skill to make a living. This is old news and I won't get into it again.

On the other hand, for the hobby maker or the knife maker starting out or just one for yourself. I see no problem with it as long as there is "FULL DISCLOSURE".

I cannot make what I consider a really good folder. I have made several of Kits, Kits and love them. My answer to the question again is, I put it together. I am not shy about telling where to get the kits. Anything to get new people interested in knife making.
 
I'm very opinionated on this type of issue. I realize we all had to start somewhere, and that's fine, but my sentiments towards this is excatly the same when I take exception to those who put together kits and call themselves "Custom" Knifemakers. I've been involved in several case where customers purchased a knife at a show, under the impression that it was "custom", only to find shortly there after that the knife was a kit. The customer(s) where angry and felt cheated because the person they purchased the knife from did not disclose to them that the knife was a kit. My reason for being so staunch on this issue? It effects all "custom"/"Handmade" makers who in fact produce thier own blades. Some may scoff at my logic, but by someone who calls themselves a "custom" knifemaker not disclosing the facts to a customer, it plants a seed of distrust within that customer from that point on. I am, and always have been proud to associate myself with "custom" knifemakers becasue of the general perception of honestly, and integrity that surrounds most of our industry. This is VERY important to me, and I will speak out/guard against anything or anybody who through action or inaction tarnishes the trust between customers and knifemakers. OK....Rant over. :D
 
mete said:
Dan ,you put a handle on a blade for me ,remember ? LOL I do agree that a 'custom knife maker' implies that he makes blades and handles and perhaps even sheaths. This handle maker should list himself as just that a 'handle maker' or 'custom handle maker'.
Click to expand...

Mete
yeahup I sure do remember and the name of the maker of the blade is still on them
I've rehandled Randals also and still the Randall name stayed on them
I am in the process right now in rehandling a genuine Rio Grande Bowie and the name will remain the same
I am a custom Knife maker and will rehandle with my skill for customers that want me to... I put up only one rehandle job on my site and it says what it is BTW it was a $350.00 job and he supplied the stag, these knives are sent to me by the customer to work on I don't sell them.
I pull no bones who belongs to what. I will put my name on the handle which I made and the blade will have the blade makers name on it..
this you could call a collabration knife, I can't say it's my custom knife.
I think all those knives made this way should have the both names and when selling them it should be listed as such, everyone of them so there will be no mistaking.
in customizing cars if you start with a chevy it's still a chevy.
this could be a can of worms.. :(

I want to add he has his name on the blade too see are
http://www.kershnerknives.com/images/shoshone.jpg
that's just plain wrong..
 
Dan Gray said:
I've rehandled Randals also and still the Randall name stayed on them
I am in the process right now in rehandling a genuine Rio Grande Bowie and the name will remain the same

I want to add he has his name on the blade too see are
http://www.kershnerknives.com/images/shoshone.jpg
that's just plain wrong..
Click to expand...


I've rehandled lots of knives for people over the years. That's just part of knifemaking, and I don't mark them at all.

I just went back to the original link Dan posted, and looked at the blades.
He marks all of them with his name!! :eek: :eek:
That IS just plain wrong, IMO.
 
I cannot speak for another knife maker, nor do I seek to sit in judgment of others.

All I can do is speak for myself and so this is what I believe:

When I hand a knife that I made to someone to look at, I can look him or her in the eyes when I say, "This is my work"
Click to expand...

Spoken like a true warrior! Worf would be proud of you!
 
Dan Gray said:
personally I can't see him calling himself a custom knife maker?? :grumpy:
a custom handle maker I agree..
he makes handles for knives ,,a knife is the blade, and On his site he should say where the blades come from..
I'm sorry it's just the way I feel about it.
Click to expand...
Dan, I wouldn't feel sorry for feeling that way. If he is just making handles, that is just what he is, a handle maker.
 
The name on the blade is also what bothers me. He is signing the blade not the handle which implies that he made made the blade, especially on any secondary market his work may show up on.

If anything, he should only sign the handle. This is one reason why I don't sell my damascus to other people. I would be one P.O'd SOB if I saw my damascus being claimed as another's work with their makers mark on the steel. Since I am such an unknown, that would be an easy thing to pull off.

Anyway, the "custom" debate will go on forever. Just depends on what your definition of is, is (as Bill Clinton made famous). That is why I chose to describe my knives as handmade. No misgivings there.
 
Laredo7mm....

If I made some damascus, a blank of it , say 1/4 inch by a foot. And I sold it to you.

And you grind it into a knife, well I would have no problem at all with you placeing your name on the blade. After all, you took something that didnt look like a knife at all, and dug into it and made it into a knife.

However, If I sold you one of my finished hunting knives, and you sanded the handle off and stuck on your own, well,,,then I dont think I would like to see anothers name on it.

if you actually had to change the look of the steel, change it from being a 7 inch hunter, to say,,,a 4 inch hunter, well then Perhaps thats not so bad, you have done your share of work too on the blade so I guess that would be okay for you to stamp...
 
DaQo'tah- That is pretty much what i was thinking, if the blade was pre ground from me, and handled by someone else.

I wouldn't mind if i sold the damascus billet to someone and they stamped it after they did all the profile, grind, heat treat, etc.

Unless of course they claimed that they made the damascus too.
 
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