WHAT DO YOU THINK???

[narruc1]

I just recently replied to a thread intitled "Teens!!! let the rest of them know how responsible we are", and it made me realize that there are minors on the forum. This is something that has never crossed my mind since I have been a member, until I read that post. Now, I have no problem with minors being on, or interacting on this forum. My problem, and my concerns are, minors buying knives.

I think, and I might be mistaken, and if I am, I'm sure someone will let me know... But it is against the law to sell a knife to a minor. I myself do not want to be responsible, or be held responsible for someone getting hurt, or killed with a knife that I had sold, or traded them. Especially if it was an automatic! Something similar happened on the Blade Auction awhile back. One of the venders on BA sold an automatic to a minor, and the kids parents found out, and caused a big problem. They went as far as to having the district attorney call this guy, and threaten him with leagal action. Also the postmaster got involved, and postal inspectors came to his door. Now, this happened on a site that checks for minor involvement, and screens to find out if you are. This forum has nothing like that, and thinking about it know, makes me wonder if I have ever sold to a minor. Just think about it... You could be selling a knife to (I will be conservative about it)seven year old. on the forum there is no voice, no face, just type, and type does not show age.

In my opinon I think this site should reavaluate it's policy on bringing in new members, and checking on the old members. Like I said earlier, minors being on the forum is just fine, but just don't let them buy. As a parent, I know how I would feel if my son, or daughter could come onto a site, and buy a knife just by typing "I will take it", without even being checked out first.

Well, thats my take on this subject, let me know what you think?

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BC... For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 08-04-2000).]

 

[Strider]

Gee does this mean they can't go into a kitchen store and buy butcher knives? Who cares if minors buy knives what I care about is that all people who buy and handle knives are responsible with them.
Bob

 

Life in general is VERY dangerous, most people die at the end of it.
The most dangerous site being a bed, that's where the most "fatal things" occur.
So never sell beds. Knives are OK. Just be careful.
Happy sharpening

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D.T. UTZINGER

 

[narruc1]

Strider, where the hell do you come from? Ask OJ if everyone that buys a knife is responsible. What a rediculous statement! And no! minors cannot go into a store, and buy butcher knives. I'm sure though, there some that get away with it, and I'm sure they get away with buying cigarettes, but it doesn't change the fact, that it is still against the law to sell to a minor.

Please strider, think before you write!

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BC... For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 08-04-2000).]

 

[Osbourn]

Checking the credentials of a buyer is the responsibility of the seller. If you take reasonable precautions, such as only taking payment via credit card over the net, then you're usually safe legally. If you take a precaution such as speaking to your buyer voice, that can't hurt.

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Oz

"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken!"
http://www.freespeech.org/oz/

 

[Blilious]

I've seen 17 years old that were ten times more responsible then most of the guys in this forum...

just kidding - I think selling to a minor is no big deal - most of the teens in this forum have shown reasonable manners and look like they know what they are doing - and besides - you can always cut yourself using a kitchen knife..

and what is it about auto's??? you fear the stupidly enforced law of automatic knives being enforced - make sure before you sell anything to anyone...

But remember - we all know this is BS since any Spyderco can be opened almost as fast (or faster - depending on your level of practice)

To make it clear - I'm 33 years old and some even consider me a responsible adult (or cleverly disguised as one...)

 

[Strider]

Narrac I was thinking the exact same thing when I first read your post but good manners prevented me from expressing your sentiment. OJ??????? Come on. Think man think before you post!!!! Why would you even start a post about minors and knives? I know many young people who I would trust around knives more then most grown ups.What was your whole point. What it took that one thread for you to realize that teenagers post here and on other internet sites "duh" as my kid says.Please be so kind as to explain as you posted my PROBLEM and CONCERN is minors buying knives???? Why does this concern you so? Why aren't you concerned with educating young knife users? Spend some energy on things you can do to show mans oldest tool in a positive light to young people.
Bob

 

[Elvislives]

I can understand the desire not to break the law. Even in the case of silly laws, I wouldn't want to break them in open view among as many eyes as there are on the internet. Auto knives, knives to minors, knives that exceed legal limits, the whole bit.

Having said that, I don't believe any action taken by people here at BFC would in and of itself lead to assault or murder. It is not the weapon, it is the person. If youngsters want to hurt or kill others, then they will find a way to do it whether they were able to buy a nasty automatic on the internet or not.

It seems that it is up to an individual who is selling a knife to determine whether they want to cover their butts, not BFC in my opinion. I'm no lawyer (but I play one on...oops), but is there liability? I'm sure somewhere there is. But then the right lawyer can create liability out of any situation.

I'd hate to see this place become any more paranoid than it already is.

Brandon

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I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...

 

[Jeff Clark]

Local laws vary considerably on selling knives to minors, compared to guns they aren't very dangerous and so they aren't as heavily regulated. A baseball bat is much more dangerous than any knife smaller than a machete and we start handing out bats and balls to boys before they get into grade school. Sheath knives are conspicous and tend to be moderately regulated. Folding knives are inconspicous and get more regulation. I don't personally see much reason to regulate sales, just carry and utilization--they can easily use kitchen knives.

When I was a teenager I could buy a lockback knife on one side of a street and not on the other. The difference was that the street was a city border. The internet is not only interstate it is international in scope. Only information and ideas flow over the internet. I'm for free exchange of information and ideas. Delivery of knives cannot be done electronically. When arranging to deliver knives you need to concern yourself with local laws.

 

[Jeff Clark]

Maybe I understated my case. I encourage young people to own knives. In my household it is NOT optional, you will be given a knife by age 6. It is part of my basic creedo, "Be Prepared". Wait a minute, that's the Boy Scout motto. It reminds me of my Cub Scout handbook which taught you how to sharpen your Cub Scout knife. It was assumed that by age 7 you were ready to have a pocket knife.

Elements of our society are leading us to a motto of, "Be Prepared--to be taken care of, you can't be trusted to take care of yourself". It's not just a paternalistic society, it's a mommy society. "Don't touch that, you might hurt yourself". I am adamantly opposed to laws and policies that say my sons and I can't be trusted to take care of ourselves. This is not such an original attitude, there was that Second Ammendment thing.

PS. I got my first rifle at age 13 and bought my first pistol by age 16. All legal, legitimate, and responsibly used. These days they don't want to admit that a 16 year old could have a legitimate use for a target pistol.



[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 08-04-2000).]

 

[Strider]

Jeff
Excellent points. I to have had knives since a young boy and so do my kids.
Bob

 

[willOthewisp]

My two cents ... Responsibility & maturity do not necessarily grow in relation to one's age. Those laws which seem to centre around the idea of a generally stupid population are there for a reason. "A *person* can be smart, but *people* are dumb, violent, dangerous animals, and you know it." (MIB movie) These laws are not written for *persons*, they're written for *people* - even though it's generally individuals that spoil the party for the rest of us. Short of buying your own private island and (successfully) petitioning the UN for legal sovereignty, there's really no winning.

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Yeah, well, people ... They're just not my bag

 

[jrollins]

I'm in a nightmare. I'm 20 years old. People look at me and say "He's 18! Kick him out of the house, he's old enough to be on his own now", and at the same time they say "He's under 21! Don't let him do anything, he's not responsible enough". To hell with being a "minor" for the next year. You think that would stop me from buying a pistol? Nope. Just stay away from dealers - plenty of private and illegal sales. Ever notice that in the more relaxed areas they don't allow you to sell to a minor, but don't prohibit possesion? Personally, I don't like places that set age limits for who they will sell to. Smoky Mountain Knife Works says they won't sell to anyone under 18, and for something REALLY whacky, it must be a federal law, you can buy rifle ammo at 18, but no pistol ammo until 21! And they probably don't care if you have a pistol-caliber rifle. I would consider myself to be somewhat responsible most of the time, but I'm also something of a nut. Rabidly pro-gun, and I'll bite someones head off(figuratively) if they say guns are evil. My knife collection is growing quickly - and so far it's mostly Spyderco. I cringe at the thought of going anywhere with a metal detector, the last time I went to the airport I left most of the stuff in the car. But the time before that, I went through with EVERYTHING! Took me a minute to figure out that my Maglite was hiding a bit further back than normal and setting off the detectors... They damn near wanted to put ME through the X-ray! They didn't look terribly thrilled with a 3" fully-serrated Schrade, but they finally let me through after interrogating me about my scanner. Forget drugs, I'm addicted to gadgets - anything that is sharp, makes a snap noise, or shines light and I'll carry it. Recently I've been a bit overloaded - LM Micra on the key chain which is housed in an Uncle Mike's silent key holder(love police duty gear!) Gerber multi-lock, AA maglite(left it home for the past few days due to low batteries - thinking about getting a rechargeable Surefire!), SAK in belt pouch, just added a CPR mask in belt pouch, thumbcuffs in the pocket(don't ask - they don't work that great anyways), Spyderco Delica(pocket) and Remote Release(belt loop on left side). And I'll tell ya, when I clip on a scanner, people give me the strangest stares!

Just wait until I add a few more Spydercos to the carry collection... I'm going to weigh a ton and clink myself to death!

OK, I had fun typing that up... Is it as much fun to read?


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John Rollins Jr KD7BCY
http://jrollins.tripod.com/
http://www.geocities.com/jrollins.geo/

 

[Paracelsus]

Yeah John, that was fun to read. I have no idea what it meant, however.

I don't mind young people hanging out and learning with the rest of us old farts here at BFC. The sign up page says it's an adult site for adult discussions. I assume any younger people posting here should be participating with the full knowledge of their parents. I assume the same thing about knife buying.

In spite of the recent law which the owner of this site is Very concerned about, which makes web site owners responsible for the age of its viewers (how exactly?), I don't see the need for some sort of age test for members. It is very true, as both young and old have pointed out in this thread, that chronological age is no real index of maturity.

Transport of automatic knives across state lines is Already a violation federal law. I don't know how to prevent unwitting people with good intentions from selling knives to minors. Maybe they should always inclose a disclaimer in correspondance stating that they will not sell to anyone under the age of 18. That should help with the legal angles on legal knife shipments.

Since I do not participate here at BFC with the intention of trading or selling knives, your 'problem' does not really concern me very much. But I would hate to see young people prevented from hanging out and learning with the rest of us. Making BFC responsible for the age of your 'customers' is really too much to ask. It's yours (and everyones) individual responsibility when selling knives or making trades.

As for the idea that young people should not be allowed to own knives, thats nuts. If their parents are involved in their lives, they should have little difficulty buying and carrying knives. Except at school of course, but that's another story.

Zero Tolerance means Zero Commonsense. But it's really not worth arguing about. All you can do is to vote the idiots out of office. The fact remains that young folks carrying knives at school may find themselves in A LOT of trouble if they get caught. It's not fair. And it's stupid and insane. But that's the world, isn't it?

My son (age nine) has three knives. But he understands that they are Never to go to school. And if that should happen by accident, it stays in his pocket and No One gets to see it.

I was really surprised in a recent thread to see so many high school kids talking about carrying at school. I can understand the need to have a knife around. I have always had at least one knife with me at all times since I was a nine. I was also a Boy Scout (from a family with Five Eagle scouts, Dad and all four brothers). Be Prepared sounds dated and silly, and I am Not ready for everything, but having a knife seems pretty normal and peacable to me. But I am 41 (Paracelsus is 507), and do not attend public schools anymore.

Civil Disobediance is a valid form of protest, But in this case, the consequences are so extreme that the risk does not seem worth taking.

Paracelsus... not really my name

 

[Matt Shade]

I can see where your coming from, and how you feel the need to protect yourself so that you don't get to pay the consequences for someone elses crime. But I really don't think the problems your worried about are all that likely to happen. The parents being upset and taking you to court is dumb. If the parents don't take the responsibility to keep an eye on their kids and at least have an idea of what their getting into then they are the ones to blame when the kid gets in trouble, or at least more so than anyone else they would like to put it off on. I doubt anyhitng serious could ever come of it.
A few things you can do to cover yourself is to only accept checks or credit card as payment. I know that some minors may have one or the other, but its not very common.And in most cases the parents are involved one way or another. Or if you have a minor interested in buying a knife from you, rather than not make the sale get some kind of written consent from the parents, a check in their name should be enough to cover you.
People really aren't as bad as it seems sometimes. And there really are a few honest people left in the world. Rather than spending all of your time worrying about what could happen,and all the terrible things peope could do with the knife you sold them, just use common sense and go on with life. For that matter its just as likely for an adult to do something illegal with a knife from you, or to buy a knife illegally from you.

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It'll feel better when it stops hurting.

 

[narruc1]

A lot of you are not really understanding what I wrote, or it could be that I didn't explain myself better.

I have no problem with minors on this forum.

I have no problem with minors having knives, because I had knives, and guns at a very young age.

I never said that anyone was going to hurt someone with a knife.

What I did say, and these are facts, not fantasy, and no matter how trivial, or stupid they are... It is the law!

1) Fact... It is against the law to sell a knife to a minor.

2)Fact... except for a few states, it is against the law to sell automatics period, no less selling them to a minor.

3)Fact... It is against the Federal law to mail auto's across state lines.

Now I agree the laws suck, and they are rediculous, but you can get in some deep you know what, none the less. Don't you think the guy from Blade Auction did something in his pants when he saw postal inspectors coming to his door? No matter how big, and brave you are on this forum, if it was happening to you don't tell me you wouldn't worry.

I was wrong to say that this forum should monitor who comes on, and buy's knives, because it is up to the seller.

Well I hope I cleared myself up a little to you all, and I just want to say thank you for all the replies, Pro, and con.

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BC... For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi

 

[avpshadowman]

My opinion is that most of the teenagers and minors here are responsible people. I come to this conclusion because since they are serious about knives, they are more likely to take care of their collection, meaning they wont risk having it confiscated by doing anything stupid.

The people you should worry about are those 'gangsta' kids, they are the ones who slice each other in street fights and give all knife people (us) a bad name. But they would most likely never come around here, firstly because they dont give a crap about quality, they just want something which will just 'do the job' and secondly, if they were to stab someone with a knife, the most obvious thing to do would be to dispose of the evidence. Now, do you think they would throw away a $300 Microtech knife or some $20 switchblade?

Just my thoughts...

Daniel

 

[Mike G]

Personally, I will not sell a knife to a minor, unless I get written consent from a parent, or guardian, and the parent pays for it themselves. I believe there are responsible teens on the forums, and I have no problem with any kid over age 7 owning a knife, as long as they can demonstrate responsibility. I have daughters, and neither one of them have even expressed an interest in having a knife, and Dad dosen't push the issue.
Bottom line here, folks, it if you sell a knife on the forums, or anywhere, cover your ***, and get something proving their age.

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"ALWAYS respond CODE 3"..
THE fastest way to get there NOW!

 

[judge]

Fact: It is not illegal to sell knives to minors.
Fact: It is illegal to sell automatics and full double edge fixed blades (daggers) to people under age 18.
Fact: Bladeforums is international, so make sure which law you are talking about. I talk about Austrian.
Even the definition of "being minor" seems to vary from state to state, much more definitions of what is illegal to sell, ship, trade with. If you care about it, make sure you cover your butt legally, if not...it´s a personal decision.
And you can´t reasonably monitor the age of people as a forum owner, as far as I know.
And smart kiddies might use their parents´ credit card.
And that´s just my 0.02 ATS.

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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron

 

[e_utopia]

narruc, it is only illegal to sell knives to minors in some states/localities. Your local or state laws may prevent sales to minors (I don't know where you are located), but in other places, they do not.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com