What does a Knife Maker own in regards to the design of their knives?

[Golden Gate Bridge]

My question is, when a knife maker designs a knife, what do they own in regards to their knife, what do they have to do to prove such ownership and how much would another knife maker have to change their design so they are not in violation of a copyright violation?

Let's speculate and say that the original knife designer/manufacturer is in the United States and the person copying the knife is in China. How does the original knife designer make his claim to his design? In a US courtroom, in a China court room?

Feel free to expand on this topic, give examples, as I know the questions are just the surface of the matter.

 

[Silvanus]

The maker owns the design of the knife as a whole as far as I know. Also any defining characteristics like Busses Talon Hole or Emerson's wave are also protected. As far as maintaining copyright integrity in china, it's an uphill battle. Like a Hydra if you remove one head three others replace it. Emerson recently had a shipment of fakes from china get seized, there's a thread about it in the Emerson sub forum.

 

[Let It Bleed]

Your question runs the gamut of patent and trademark law to questions of personal and subject matter jurisdiction. Then there is the matter of actually executing a judgment (i.e. actually getting the $). Criminal law may also be involved in the case of counterfeit goods.

The reality is that the most important commodity of any skilled knifemaker (or any type artisan) is REPUTATION. Even the larger knifemakers, which are relatively not that large, have little to gain from going after those who infringe upon their designs. After all, the consumer, who buys an obvious "knock-off" product, has not chosen the $60 knife over the $600 original (or the $6 knife instead of the $60 original). Such a consumer was never in the market for the "real" thing.

That's why trademarks are frequently more actively enforced. For example, Benchmade's Butterfly. Benchmade is not going to care if there are cheap imitations of their knives, unless they attempt to infringe on a Benchmade trademark. This is because Benchmade doesn't won't the average consumer to mistakenly believe that a particular product is attributable to them, when they did not manufacture said product.

Therefore, what Benchmade or any other company is truly trying to protect is their reputation for quality. The guy who buys a $5 flea market look alike is not a lost sale, as this person never intended to purchase a quality product from a respected manufacturer. But if well known trademarks are illegally put on illegal copies, then it dilutes the brand name and creates confusion.

Consumers may come to believe that a reputable brand has sold out, or may just fear that they will receive the "junk" brand even though they paid for the name brand being represented.

 

[Murindo]

It is difficult to protect any fixed blade design since new unique designs are rare.

 

[RevDevil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_China

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

For clarity, let's use a Chris Reeve Sebenza since that it a common counterfeit knife that I'm aware of. If the Chinese manufacturer was to leave off the Chris Reeve name and copyright logo, can they reproduce that knife with 100% accuracy? If not, what do they have to change to legally produce a similar looking knife? Does the knife manufacturer own the rights to that exact knife specifications and nobody can make a duplicate of it?

How do the counterfeiters produce the knife? Do they purchase a new knife, take it apart, have a computer scan it, then program the computer milling machines to manufacture it?

If this is a civil issue, why do we use Government agencies to enforce the patent/trademark laws? Why should the taxpayer be the ones paying for the enforcement of a civil issue?

Your question runs the gamut of patent and trademark law to questions of personal and subject matter jurisdiction. Then there is the matter of actually executing a judgment (i.e. actually getting the $). Criminal law may also be involved in the case of counterfeit goods.

The reality is that the most important commodity of any skilled knifemaker (or any type artisan) is REPUTATION. Even the larger knifemakers, which are relatively not that large, have little to gain from going after those who infringe upon their designs. After all, the consumer, who buys an obvious "knock-off" product, has not chosen the $60 knife over the $600 original (or the $6 knife instead of the $60 original). Such a consumer was never in the market for the "real" thing.

That's why trademarks are frequently more actively enforced. For example, Benchmade's Butterfly. Benchmade is not going to care if there are cheap imitations of their knives, unless they attempt to infringe on a Benchmade trademark. This is because Benchmade doesn't won't the average consumer to mistakenly believe that a particular product is attributable to them, when they did not manufacture said product.

Therefore, what Benchmade or any other company is truly trying to protect is their reputation for quality. The guy who buys a $5 flea market look alike is not a lost sale, as this person never intended to purchase a quality product from a respected manufacturer. But if well known trademarks are illegally put on illegal copies, then it dilutes the brand name and creates confusion.

Consumers may come to believe that a reputable brand has sold out, or may just fear that they will receive the "junk" brand even though they paid for the name brand being represented.

 

[Misanthropia]

For clarity, let's use a Chris Reeve Sebenza since that it a common counterfeit knife that I'm aware of. If the Chinese manufacturer was to leave off the Chris Reeve name and copyright logo, can they reproduce that knife with 100% accuracy? If not, what do they have to change to legally produce a similar looking knife? Does the knife manufacturer own the rights to that exact knife specifications and nobody can make a duplicate of it?

How do the counterfeiters produce the knife? Do they purchase a new knife, take it apart, have a computer scan it, then program the computer milling machines to manufacture it?

If this is a civil issue, why do we use Government agencies to enforce the patent/trademark laws? Why should the taxpayer be the ones paying for the enforcement of a civil issue?

Hmm... in your short time here, the overwhelming majority of your posts have in reference to counterfeit knives. Why so curious about the technicalities involved in ripping off the hard earned work of legitimate makers?

It's really quite simple. Companies in China have no respect for US intellectual property, and thus create fake knives to profit off of those who are short sighted enough to not see the issue in supporting these people. Any other view on it is sure to be unpopular around here...

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

Do you know what is legal or illegal in regards to copying a knife design that would stand up in a US or China courtroom, not your opinion, but the legal details that attorneys would argue? Are you opposed to people engaging in legal manufacturing of knives? When is a copy a copy? How much different does a knife have to be to be considered a copyright/patent violation? Do you know? If you don't know, then that's what needs to be defined. Maybe you and others may learn something.

Hmm... in your short time here, the overwhelming majority of your posts have in reference to counterfeit knives. Why so curious about the technicalities involved in ripping off the hard earned work of legitimate makers?

It's really quite simple. Companies in China have no respect for US intellectual property, and thus create fake knives to profit off of those who are short sighted enough to not see the issue in supporting these people. Any other view on it is sure to be unpopular around here...

 

[Chris Larrikin]

Edit: I've realised that this post might seem like America bashing. Just to clarify it's not meant that way. My intention is just to show how messy and complicated IP issues are

Something you need to recognize is that the US legal system is not universal. Intellectual property law is a quagmire at the best of times and it can become truly inconceivable when you are in an international setting. A US court decision has no bearing outside the United States (although it might be drawn on or accepted if there is some sort of international agreement)so when you talk about Chinese counterfeiting you're entering Chinese legal territory. China doesn't necessarily accept the patents and trademarks originating in other parts of the world, nor do they have an obligation to unless they have signed a convention or agreement.

So when you talk about design ownership it isn't just a matter of what you own; it's also a matter of where you own it.

There is also such a thing as too much protection of intellectual property. Take for example the US court decision to grant intellectual property rights to an individual for tbe use of the Ancient Greek letter "Pi", or the well known company who deal in genetically modified crops and then sue farmers whose farms are wind-sown or bird-sown for IP theft.

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

I find the topic interesting because I know so little about it and because many people have strong opinions about it, whether right or wrong. These same people are the ones that think nothing of going to Walmart and buying something that most likely was made in a foreign country. The comment above by Let it Bleed gave a good insight on just a small area of this topic. Counterfeit Knives of poor quality have a negative impact on the authentic manufacturers reputation. These buyers were never going to buy an authentic. I think many people believe that if you don't discuss it, it will magically go away. Kind of like the pink elephant (ie Illegal Immigration) sitting in your living room, that if you don't discuss it, it won't be noticed. I'm more concerned with the negative cost & quality of life effects of Illegal Immigration in this country than Counterfeit Knives.

Edit: I've realised that this post might seem like America bashing. Just to clarify it's not meant that way. My intention is just to show how messy and complicated IP issues are

Something you need to recognize is that the US legal system is not universal. Intellectual property law is a quagmire at the best of times and it can become truly inconceivable when you are in an international setting. A US court decision has no bearing outside the United States (although it might be drawn on or accepted if there is some sort of international agreement)so when you talk about Chinese counterfeiting you're entering Chinese legal territory. China doesn't necessarily accept the patents and trademarks originating in other parts of the world, nor do they have an obligation to unless they have signed a convention or agreement.

So when you talk about design ownership it isn't just a matter of what you own; it's also a matter of where you own it.

There is also such a thing as too much protection of intellectual property. Take for example the US court decision to grant intellectual property rights to an individual for tbe use of the Ancient Greek letter "Pi", or the well known company who deal in genetically modified crops and then sue farmers whose farms are wind-sown or bird-sown for IP theft.

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

So what does the authentic knife manufacturer own in regards to the knife design and how much does a copy have to be before it can be legally produced and sold?

According to the definition of Counterfeit on wikipedia, it is meant to deceive the buyer into thinking that they are purchasing/owning an original authorized knife, as an example, to write the name of Chris Reeve Idaho on an unauthorized produced knife copy manufactured in China.

"The counterfeiters either attempt to deceive the consumer into thinking they are purchasing a legitimate item, or convince the consumer that they could deceive others with the imitation."

Here is wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit

Edit: I've realised that this post might seem like America bashing. Just to clarify it's not meant that way. My intention is just to show how messy and complicated IP issues are

Something you need to recognize is that the US legal system is not universal. Intellectual property law is a quagmire at the best of times and it can become truly inconceivable when you are in an international setting. A US court decision has no bearing outside the United States (although it might be drawn on or accepted if there is some sort of international agreement)so when you talk about Chinese counterfeiting you're entering Chinese legal territory. China doesn't necessarily accept the patents and trademarks originating in other parts of the world, nor do they have an obligation to unless they have signed a convention or agreement.

So when you talk about design ownership it isn't just a matter of what you own; it's also a matter of where you own it.

There is also such a thing as too much protection of intellectual property. Take for example the US court decision to grant intellectual property rights to an individual for tbe use of the Ancient Greek letter "Pi", or the well known company who deal in genetically modified crops and then sue farmers whose farms are wind-sown or bird-sown for IP theft.

 

[craytab]

At this point you should probably contact legal advice rather than solicit opinions from random internet people. You have started 3 threads here about the same issue. Congrats on this one not being atomically moved and locked.

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

Other people on this forum may be interested in reading and contributing to this topic. If it has no interest to you, you don't have to read it. This is a topic for conversation. I don't need legal advice.

Do you know the answer to this question: What does the authentic knife manufacturer own in regards to the knife design and how much does a copy have to be before it can be legally produced and sold?

At this point you should probably contact legal advice rather than solicit opinions from random internet people.

 

[Misanthropia]

Other people on this forum may be interested in reading and contributing to this topic. If it has no interest to you, you don't have to read it. This is a topic for conversation. I don't need legal advice.

Do you know the answer to this question: What does the authentic knife manufacturer own in regards to the knife design and how much does a copy have to be before it can be legally produced and sold?

Except it is the job of our community to try and combat counterfeiting, which is why there are a number of rules here in regards to them. All this conversation will lead to is giving potential counterfeiters the information they need to legally get away with ripping people off.

Now how is that helpful?

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

This topic is about how to assist/educate the knife buyer so they have an idea of what knives they buy are manufactured legally. The topic is NOT about how to assist counterfeit knives manufacturers so they can continue to build their counterfeit knives. The question is: What does the authentic knife manufacturer own in regards to the knife design and how much does a copy have to be before it can be legally produced and sold?

I think the manufacturers of knives, who have hundreds of thousands of dollars in machining equipment don't come to bladeforums.com to search for what they can build. They consult laws, patent and copyright information, other manufacturers, lawyers and such.

 

[Sonnydaze]

It doesn't appear that folks are going to give you the answer(s) that you may be looking for? Perhaps we don't know; we don't necessarily care all that much; we know what brands we like; we support those makers with whom we are familiar; we are suspicious of models from certain new off-shore brands. It's difficult and wrong to generalize about the readership here; a tremendously varied group which I like.

 

[RevDevil]

I already know I am going to regret this but here goes nothing. You have a 2 part question.

The first answer is simply, everything related to that "design". The person that designs that specific knife owns the design overall, which uses elements that have been created elsewhere. Whatever that entails "design" cannot be specifically defined so that you or I can make black and white judgments on it. It's one of these things where you know it when you see. it.
The second part would be, I have no idea because it is worded vaguely. I will say from what I have read and seen in the industry permission is usually given by the original maker/designer, etc. What you are asking is for someone to condense about 40-ish years worth of:
Copyright, Trademark, and Patent laws
International Intellectual Property law
Chinese vs American litigation
Global Economics
NAFTA
and Business management
on the matter into spoon sized pieces for you. It's the equivalent of asking "How many stars are there in the sky?" That is not going to happen. You need to have a lot better perspective than what you are demonstrating in order to being to wrap your brain around such a complicated and extensive topic such as this. You are in the wrong place to be asking the types of questions, this audience cannot provide the detailed answers you "need". You might need to talk with a copyright lawyer and learn the hobbyist side and business side of knife making to get a better answer.

Most people don't need to have any education on how to buy a legal/authentic item, they simply buy from what we call "Authorized Dealers", these dealers have been deemed legitimate by the manufacturers by some sort of magical means involving some rituals that we cannot divulge. Most people already know NOT to buy counterfeit items, some people get deceived into thinking they are buying something legitimate. That is when we attempt to help educate them. Make some effort to absorb what is being written and apply it to your questions.

 

[craytab]

Do you know what is legal or illegal in regards to copying a knife design that would stand up in a US or China courtroom, not your opinion, but the legal details that attorneys would argue?

Other people on this forum may be interested in reading and contributing to this topic. If it has no interest to you, you don't have to read it. This is a topic for conversation. I don't need legal advice.

Um....You did say the top quote, right? Sounds like you need to ask a copyright lawyer and one in China none the less.

Look, you have started 3 threads on this exact same subject. The first two blatantly broke the rules here by discussing whether it was okay to knock off a CRK. Both of those were shut down.

Are you opposed to people engaging in legal manufacturing of knives?

And looky here! You engage in the same line of thinking that got the other threads shut down. Of course Not! What we don't like is folks weighing the pros and cons of whether it is legal or illegal, which is what you are doing.

This topic is about how to assist/educate the knife buyer so they have an idea of what knives they buy are manufactured legally. The topic is NOT about how to assist counterfeit knives manufacturers so they can continue to build their counterfeit knives. The question is: What does the authentic knife manufacturer own in regards to the knife design and how much does a copy have to be before it can be legally produced and sold?

And now you want to frame your discussion under the guise of educating the public on why not to buy counterfeits?

Bull Snot.

 

[T_MAC686]

Bull Snot.

So true...

 

[The cow]

They would have to have a very unique feature to them, but usually they only own the trade mark of the knife. It is much easier for folding blades to "own" the knife since they seem to be infinitely more intricate than fixed blades.
Most reputable fixed blade makers tend to cater more to the survival/bushcraft community which the users are usually well entrenched in design characteristics/function and less concerned with cosmetics and especially blade steels than folding knife enthusiasts.