What exactly do we mean by "shaving sharp"?

K

Khromo

Joined
May 25, 2018
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203
I have to ask!

I have been seriously engaged in sharpening things for some time now. My arms and legs are substantially naked these days.

But I have tried to shave my face with my best efforts on various utility knives, pocket knives, and even with very thin Asian kitchen cutlery. And it is not happening, at least not without a lot of pain and a little blood.

So my question is: How many of the guys on this site who talk about getting their knives "shaving sharp" are talking about shaving their faces, and how many are talking about shaving arms and legs?

There is a huge difference, in my experience. I'm not talking about razors or other specialty blades specifically designed to shave the face.
 
Shaving sharp means your arms and legs, not your face.

The level of refinement on an edge makes a huge difference in the smoothness of a shave. Straight razors are finished extremely fine and also have a very different geometry to normal knives. You would quickly damage them cutting anything but hair.

Leg and arm hair is a lot less coarse than facial hair and of course those areas are a lot less sensitive
 
Yeah, most face/beard hair is coarser, and the skin under it more sensitive. Some experts, like Murray Carter I believe, have demonstrated the sharpness of their blades by shaving their face with the aid of shaving cream. But, 'shaving sharp' among most of us hobbyists usually means taking the finer hair from arms/legs. If one does that without cutting or irritating the skin, so much the better. There's also 'tree-topping' sharpness, which implies freely clipping hairs above the skin, which takes the proof of sharpness up another notch.

I seem to remember seeing a post from someone shaving their chest. Past a certain point, it starts getting into T.M.I. territory... :eek:
 
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Let's put numbers on it:

My double edged safety razor blades score about 50 BESS. Lower scores mean sharper blades. A really, really sharp kitchen knife or pocket knife of mine will score 100 to 120 BESS. Those scores are exceptions and not the rule. Generally speaking I get kitchen and EDC blades to 200 BESS or below. I'm happy when a blade is 175 BESS or below.

All of these will shave arm hair. The razor blade obviously shaves more easily. It is also so thin I can fold it in half; it has very little structure. The blade geometry is rather different than a more general purpose knife blade.

Shaving the face is one of those very specialty tasks that has tools specifically engineered to do it.

I still value arm hair shaving is a good measure of sharpness for my blades. I use it frequently.

Brian.
 
If you look at the Sharpness Chart sticky thread, Wootz has thoughtfully identified several degrees of what we mean by 'shaving sharp.' From roughly scraping hair off your arm (which is what 99% of people mean), to 'tree-topping', where you can pass a blade through the arm hair without coming close to the skin and it slices off hairs. He correlates each degree of shaving sharp to a specific apex width in microns. And he suggests some home tests you can do to check sharpness even if you don't have a fancy Bess tester or laser goniometer to check your edges.
http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf
 
I trimmed around my beard and mustache with my Buck 120 General when I received it. It was funny watching those whiskers fly away. I didn't cut my face but I cut my fingers a little bit. It was awkward holding that thing and shaving whiskers with the clip point.
 
David Mary said:
Robert, I think that deserves to be featured in the "Stuff You Made" thread.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/stuff-you-made.1772405/
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I've mentioned it on a couple of threads. I think it is better for testing how long an edge can stay sharp. After I get a Bess tester, I can sharpen a blade, and then cut 10 strips of the straps and then test the blade sharpness again. I will see how much cutting 10 strap strips or more will dull the blade.
 
^That (pointing to David Mary David Mary last post). Can check the sharpness chart for a few reasonable tests, but it's really not much more complicated than that. The above 2 tests are easy and give you a very sharp working edge for > 90% of anything you could need.

A few tests I commonly use to test different aspects of sharpness, without ever putting a blade on myself (arm hair, thumbnail tests, etc.):

* Computer paper/news print/phonebook paper. Try many different aspects. Can it draw-cut into a page, and if so how far. Does it catch anywhere along your edge. Can it push-cut, check the same things. Can it cut curvy shapes. Does it cut cleanly along the edge but then catch or the friction or sound changes as you get to the belly and tip (a sure sign that you don't have your belly/tip sharpened as well as the straight). Can you slice- or push-cut horizontally (cross-grain) on the paper. Can you do same at a 45 degree angle. These are all useful tests. And one of my faves of all: can it fillet curls into the surface of computer paper without perforating through it. That takes a very sharp edge, and if you can do it at 3 or 4 points all along your blade, you have a very good working edge.

* Clean-slicing a paper towel. For some reason, this is a really reliable test. I've had so many knives I thought were super sharp, then try to slice thru some paper towel and it just catches and rips it ragged. A truly sharp edge can slice into the paper towel cleanly for at least a couple inches without tearing it.

* For the next challenging level: receipt paper. You can use old receipts or buy really cheap rolls of it. Do all the above slicing tests, but now with receipt paper. If you can fillet a curl on RECEIPT paper without cutting through, on any part of your edge, now you're getting REALLY sharp.

* For one of the most challenging tests: Can you CLEANLY push-cut, or slice, Rizla red or green cigarette paper. With the resulting slice being clean not jagged. The method for the test is described in sharpness chart. I find this test really useful, you just can't fake this level of sharpness. My wife thought I was slightly nuts when she saw I bought a box of Rizla green cigarette papers and a few rolls of receipt paper, and she's probably right! :po_O But there was a method to the madness--I found it preferable to constantly shaving body hair (which is not quickly renewable).
 
Khromo said:
I have to ask!

I have been seriously engaged in sharpening things for some time now. My arms and legs are substantially naked these days.

But I have tried to shave my face with my best efforts on various utility knives, pocket knives, and even with very thin Asian kitchen cutlery. And it is not happening, at least not without a lot of pain and a little blood.

So my question is: How many of the guys on this site who talk about getting their knives "shaving sharp" are talking about shaving their faces, and how many are talking about shaving arms and legs?

There is a huge difference, in my experience. I'm not talking about razors or other specialty blades specifically designed to shave the face.
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Yep, there's miles of difference between an edge that scrapes hair off a limb, and one that close shaves your face with no blood and very little irritation.

IMG-7845en.jpg


Although this picture proves nothing, every thread needs at least one.

I've face shaved with several plain edge knives in different steels over the years (don't try serrated)... curiosity gets the best of me sometimes.
 
maximus83 said:
I found it preferable to constantly shaving body hair (which is not quickly renewable).
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Lol

I often wonder about the guys I see on youtube shaving a 2" x 12" strip off of their arm. It's like, come on, take a square centimeter, and the point is proved.

I shaved (my neck, only because I keep a close trimmed beard and mustache) with the LC200N wharncliffe I made for myself. Yes, too pointy to do that every day, but it did the job nicely along with a small amount of my usual shaving cream. Not quite as close as my safety razor, but I am not one to refine my edges beyond the Sharpmaker ceramic stones and bare leather strop.
 
jpm2 said:
I've face shaved with several plain edge knives in different steels over the years (don't try serrated)... curiosity gets the best of me sometimes.
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Lol! I hope you don't mean curiosity made you try serrated.... :eek:
 
Khromo said:
I have to ask!
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You can ask, but will the answers you get be legitimate? I used to be as curious as you. So many guys crowing about their mad sharpening skills, but on the rare occasion that they post a pic, you do a double take and think, "Jeez! That's the ugliest work I've seen in ages!"

I'll try to be honest. I do nice work. My edges are pretty. My edges are sharp. If you accidentally touch them, the red stuff leaks out. But I would never consider shaving with one. That would be silly.
 
I forgot to mention that my Buck 120 trimmed the hairs dry. Sorry, I didn't take any photos. But I'm not doing that anymore. No sense in taking the chance. I'll be getting a Bess tester soon.
But while I'm sharpening a blade with my Wicked Edge 130, after I remove any burr with a couple of edge-leading strokes, I make sure that the edge will slice a piece of paper towel before I move to the next grit. I figure if an edge will slice the paper towel, it's plenty sharp enough. But it will be fun doing some edge testing using the Bess.
 
For most, “shaving sharp” means that the edge is better than butter knife dull. Let’s face it, it’s a marketing term, not a scientific proposition and even if we were to express this as some ideal inclusive edge angle, would that be a useful measurement? The best edge is the one that best suits the intended use of the tool. Anything can be made sharp, what counts is whether it can perform with that edge without excessive dulling, deformation, chipping, bending or fracturing.

N2s
 
not2sharp said:
For most, “shaving sharp” means that the edge is better than butter knife dull. Let’s face it, it’s a marketing term, not a scientific proposition and even if we were to express this as some ideal inclusive edge angle, would that be a useful measurement? The best edge is the one that best suits the intended use of the tool. Anything can be made sharp, what counts is whether it can perform with that edge without excessive dulling, deformation, chipping, bending or fracturing.

N2s
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I agree. I'm kinda OCD about removing steel. I try to remove as little as possible. So I don't reprofile edges down to crazy acute angles. I try to stick to the angles the manufacturer suggests, or to a good working angle.
 
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