What good are big bad knives if....

L

Lukers

Joined
Jul 17, 1999
Messages
571
Hello everyone,
I was just out in the woods today and came to a realization. It isn't very profound but here it goes...I suck at this survival stuff. I walked around woods for over an hour trying to think of ways to use the materials around me but I felt very illprepared to tackle a situation that could arise. I have a Bm-e and it is a fine blade for hacking up stuff and making shelters.I have my swiss army it is fine for little cutting chores but here's the kicker...because I don't know what I am doing, they are really of no use. Yes I can start a fire with a ferro rod quickly from natural materials, yes I can build a shelter...but I think I would starve around here if I just had a knife. Yes this is flat farmland area and these woods are in town, so there's two shots against me as far as finding lots of critters and a variety of plants. I have all twelve of Ron's videos and have watched them religiously, getting every bit I can from them and yet still...I honestly think that I would perish with just one big fancy expensive knife.I can just see it now...the search and rescue teams playing rock paper scissors for my knife while joking about how bad at survivng I was.
This post was meant to express how having a very high quality knife (with a lot of hype that goes along with it), can give some people (like me) false confidence when it comes to handling the harsh realities of the woods.
Any feed back from you kind, knowledgeable gentlemen could give would be very appreciated.
thank you
Luke Freeouf
a.k.a.Crappy survivalist wannabe with an expensive knife.
p.s.what's the expression they use in D.A.R.E. class...a wannabe is a gonnabe. Yeah maybe if I am lucky...
 
If you have firemaking and shelter building covered to your satisfaction, then you are further along than many others. Next would be water. If most of us vanish in the woods there is hopefully someone who will come looking for us. If you can build fire and shelter, even if you can't find water and food, you have improved your chances of being rescued many fold.

Otherwise, couldn't agree with you more. Training is essential. Videos are great but there is nothing like the real thing.
 
Couldn't agree more. The only answer is practice, practice, practice. Learn something new at every opportunity. Practice it over and over again until it becomes second nature. As you pointed out, being able to survive in the wilds is about much more than lugging around a big knife. The best survival tools are your head and your hands.
 
Lukers, at least you can take some comfort from knowing and admiting you survival short-comings. That is much better than someone who has convinced themselves that they can survive with just a knife, but has no survival skills at all.
I'm willing to bet that you have alot more knowledge and skill than you think you do.
I love knives and I would want one in any survival situation, but...knowledge is much more important!
Learn to fish with primitive tackle.
Try to learn about the edible plants in your region (remember that most primitive people are hunters and GATHERERS). Roots, berries, and plants don't run away and you don't have to trap and kill them either. Even insects and such have lots of protein for survival.
Besides, you're not home-steading, you're surviving!
Can you determine your location and the direction you need to travel to find help?
Can you create signal fires or other attractions to be located by rescue searchers?
Are you healthy and in good physical condition?
Are your immunizations and dental-work up to date?
Can you "ride the storm out" or survive until help arrives?
Did you arrange for someone to come looking for you if you are missing for a specified period of time?
Remember, you don't have to be Daniel Boone, you just have to hold on long enough for help to arrive, or survive the hike back to help.
And don't have a defeatist attitude! YOU CAN MAKE IT!

Good luck,
Allen.
 
You just need to practice! Choose a skill, like traps for instance, make traps of different types using different materials. Do it until you an set them up with your eyes closed. Then pick another skill, like friction fire making. It's very difficult (but still a useful tool) to go out into the woods and go "Okay, how would I survive?" Build up the basics, and then keep improving on them. Then gradually move into more complicated skills. The Woodsmaster tapes are excellent. You should go through them in order, and perfect each skill. Just don't give up! The big fancy knife isn't very useful if you don't know what to do with it.
 
"I think I would starve," you say Luke...

"Most people in a survival situation become overly concerned about what they're going to eat. This is understandable, since most of us are used to three meals a day. Yet of the four necessities for survival, food is usually the least important. Chances are you can survive for a month or more without eating. And though it may take a while to adjust to more meager rations, you can probably maintain a healthy body on a fraction of your present diet. By the same token, fire usually ranks low on the list of necessities unless there is an immediate danger of freezing or chilling. Under wet conditions without matches, your firemaking efforts may be frustrating at best. Even if you do get a fire going, it will probably not keep you warm and dry without added protection. Water, of course, is an important essential, because you can survive only a few days with out it. But, as I'll explain, you can easily collect water in almost any environment. That leaves shelter as the most critical necessity in a survival situation."
Tom Brown, Field Guide to Wilderness Survival

You know shelter Luke. That's biggest. Mr. Brown says you've got a month before you starve. I know from fasting experience that hunger goes away quickly. However as Matt said, learn water next, only two days without water and we're in trouble.

After that learn food: wild edibles, trapping and hunting.

Take care,
bug
 
You know, guys, these comments about being able to live for a month without eating is pure nonsense. If you think you will be functioning normally on the 29th day, and suddenly dead on the 30th, you are setting yourself up for a dangerous situation. This has been discussed before and I'm amazed at the casual reference to how long one can go without food. What do you consider the endpoint of not eating -- death, inability to move, inability to reason? I've indicated my experience at not eating anything for ten days -- not fasting in the sense that you eat a meal a day after sunset or something like that -- NO FOOD for ten days. I can tell you, I wouldn't have made it to the 30th even in my own home, let alone in the woods or other survival situation! It doesn't take long before you start making irrational decisions, getting irritable, and not wanting to do anything except lie down and sleep.

Please stop making reference to this myth. Although I wouldn't want anyone to jeopardize their health, I don't think anyone should speculate how long someone can go without food unless they have done it themselves. This is just plain irresponsible.

Strong message to follow!

Bruce Woodbury
 
surviving is like fighting, its all in your head.

you survive with what is in your head, all the guns, traps, knives, are just tools. tools that make survival easier.

jeff cooper talks about fighting and has the same philosophy, you fight with your mind, everything els is just a tool.

sharpen your mind as well as you blade, they will both serve you in good stead should the need arise.

alex
 
I think the point was that food isn't the first on the list. If you are lost in the bush, you need fire (hypothermia comes in hours, sometimes minutes in the cold or wet), shelter (also helps prevent hypothermia, and if it's not raining, it might be in an hour or two), water (death in a few days, dehydration in one or less.) then, lastly, food. Yes, some people can last a month or more, but no, not everybody. But even if you lose your mind after ten days, that's still seven days after you're dead from lack of water. If you have your fire, shelter and water covered in the first day or two, you have lots of time to catch/kill/gather food. And a fire to cook it, a place to eat it, and something to wash it down with.
Besides, when you get rescued three days after you got lost, that Big Mac will taste pretty damn good if you haven't eaten!

Just a note... I always have multi-vitamins, drink crystals, decaf tea, sugar, tin cup and a handful of powerbars or cliff bars in my pack or jacket. That's enough to get you through for a long while. I keep it in a zipper close freezer bag, which I can use for collecting water

Jet
 
Let's say you are in the woods with only what's in your pockets. You have built a shelter and have a fire going. That's GREAT!!

Now, water comes next. If you aren't good at anything else, a trap can supply this need! Yes I said a TRAP! Set traps, figure 4's, deadfalls, etc. Getting a critter or two yields some food, but more importantly, a skin and possibly a stomach and intestines. You can clean these and use as WATER CONTAINERS even if you can't MAKE one out of wood or something else at hand.

You can boil water in a green skin with rocks, hence making your water, 'dead'.

As the others have said, learn!! Take the skills you have and expand on them. That's all any of us can do. Practice makes one 'better,' I won't say perfect! ;)

The main idea of saying one can live 30 days without food is to make it a lower priority need than the others. Here in ND in the winter, one can easily die in a day or hours without a proper shelter and eventually a fire. Water comes next, then finally food. Most people that don't know much about wilderness survival tend to think of FOOD before ANYTHING else and wind up dead long before they would have starved to death!
 
Bug said...
But, as I'll explain, you can easily collect water in almost any environment.
Click to expand...

What were you thinking of here? Animal entrails as someone has just suggested? Transpiration bags (you have to have plastic with you), or what? I am curious. I know of a few ways to look for water and a few places to find it, but my experience is very limited and depends on certain environments and/or plants being present.
 
Tom Brown's credibility is questioned. In one of his books, The Search, he describes how how tested himself. He walked into the Pine Barrens of New Jersey with a knife and took all of his clothes off. He walked out of the Pine Barrens one year later.

In the same book he describes a nineteen day fast.

Let's not get off my point here. It is, as Jet says, that food isn't first on the list. It's last:

Shelter
Water
Fire
Food

Take care,
bug
 
Ok, here I have some experience.

Few years ago I was testing if I can live and be functional w/o food for a month.
I did not eat for 30 days. I drank lots water, tea and sometimes on bad days I had a cup of orange juice. That´s it.

My experience is that on some days I was slow with getting up from sitting or laying. Sometimes I got dizzy. So I took my time and it was fine.
Other days (most days) were perfect. On the 19th day I even climbed a mountain in the alpes that I failed on 3 years earlier.

My thinking and decision making was better and clearer than ever.

I was colder than usually and needed one more blanket at night.

I know that I could have gone even more than those 30 days, but I don´t know how long.

I lost 33 pounds in those 30 days.

With that experience I KNOW that food is not MY priority.

Have a good one.
 
Thank you Dirk. What was it like when you started eating again?

Take care,
bug
 
Big knife survival.

When I was in the military, survival learning was the kind of military thing you did. I loved it but found early on that I had already covered three quarters of the sylabus from when I was younger.
When I was 10 to 14 years old I hung out with the neighbours "Woodsman", one of those real old timers. That and my hours hunting game with an air rifle (with my cat) unconsciously allowed me to tune into a natural environment. Home I can survive. Looking back I was really good at it. In fact, I've never been as tuned in since.

Five big observations I've made over the years since.

1) Most people have no grounding in the real natural world at all.
2) Different environments have different rules, which cannot be picked up from a few days study.
3) There are good reasons why some places in the world are uninhabited by man.
4) Survival is really hard work, and living off the land for any length of time, without backup, even harder.
5) Individuals don't last long; human achievment is through team work.

Things that are going for us in the survival/adventure field:

If you teach yourself some survival skills and practice them, then you are miles ahead of most people. Just doing some of it will give you some confidence when something does go wrong. Its fun anyway.

When in a foreign environment its much more easy to adapt if you have tuned into an enviroment at least once before. So long as you stay open minded. Many of the rules of survival travel well. Lighting a fire is a great morale boost where ever you are, and first aid is useful anywhere.

Help is usually not that far away, so any skills and mental confidence that can help you "hang on in there" that much longer must be a good thing.

Most travel into the wilderness is as an expedition; one man or fifty. All the kit, resources, preparation, backup, and a plan. Nothing wrong in that, its just that things will go wrong. Experiance, self confidence and some sound practical knowledge may well stop a hiccup turning into a disaster.

When things do go horribly wrong, its a shock. If you have done some disaster management, experienced all kinds all kinds of stuff, then you might snap out of it faster and do something useful.

Food and sleep depravation is exhausting and adversly affects your dicision making big time. If you have experienced them, even practiced managing the side effects, then you are going to fare better. Keeping energy levels up is very important as not managing them will degrade your capacity to work/function fast. Even a few worms does make a difference; though short term, that might be all you need to get through.

The importance of water intake will always be the highest priority.

If you are anything like me, you have the education and a certain level of wealth that protects you and gives you a level of arrogant confidence. You can buy great kit! I know I'm on an adventure when the environment I'm in doesn't give a dam about my priviledged position. Thats the place to be to start living - for a short time anyway ;)


My big knife theory: A big knife helps your work load when practicing survival or when out in the woods enjoying yourself. You can just get more jobs done with one, which allows you to do more thing and enjoy yourself even more. Now this is the important bit: "Heck, you might even be carrying the whoppa chopper when you find yourself in a real adventure".
 
My doctor warned me to start eating very slowly. First day was a half apple, chewing on it for 30 minutes. To tell the truth: I didn´t eat the whole thing, it was to much.
On the 3rd day some bread was allowed and only after a week would I touch meat.
Everything was tasting other than I remembered, richer maybe. Probably my tasting senses were finetuned again.

Have a good one.
 
I agree that food may not be your most important consideration, but I don't agree that it sould be resigned to a "list". We often think of lists as a device where you start at the top and finish the first item before going on to the second. In a survival situation, you need to work on the whole list at the same time -- dividing your time, strength, and mental capability among the requirements and their immediate needs.

The problem with going without food is you tend to lose muscle as well as fat, at changing proportions, but you tend to get weaker over time.

The items on your "list" are like crystal balls. You need to keep them all in the air, although you can throw the "food" ball a little higher while you deal with shelter and water a little more intently before it comes down.

Bruce
 
You have my respect as a Senior Food Scientist/ U.S. Army Officer Bruce. Thank you for defending us.

However my hero's are the Major Mike Kealy's and Labalaba's of the world. I am not in their class.


Survival Brief:

We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go Always a little further....
Click to expand...
James Elroy Flecker, Journey to Samarkand


Matthew, I will post here about water. Those weren't my words, but Tom Brown's.

Take care,
bug
 
Answering Matthew:

In the survival guide I mentioned earlier Tom Brown (T.B. hereinafter) does explain water collection. My experience is also very limited Matthew, and I am mainly passing on what Mr. Brown says. Tom discusses finding, collecting and treating water .

FINDING
Look-
Tom says watch animals. Think where do they get their water? When going to drink, animals and birds, usually go straight to water without grazing, hunting etc. When returning from drinking they meander. Follow them when they make a bee line. Most animal trails eventually go to water.

Look on the inside bends of dried waterways.

Listen- Listen for frogs croaking.

Water collects in depressions in rock called kettles, and condenses on rocks and other things in the morning.

COLLECTING
To collect the moisture from the inside of bends in dried water ways dig a hole and wait for water to seep into it.

"(C)ollecting dew is probably the simplest and safest way to get drinkable water in a survival situation. Unlike the water found in natural catches, dew is recently condensed, distilled water.... The only equipment needed to gather dew is a rag, a piece of clothing, or a handful of dried, nontoxic grasses. Just wipe the moisture from the landscape and wring the liquid into a container or directly into your mouth." T.B.

Grape vines have a surprising amount of water. We only need to cut the vine at the base with our expensive big knife and allow it to drip into our mouths or a container. I grow grapes and have done this.

TREATING
Water should be filtered (cloth) and then boiled for 20 minutes. Tom didn't use to boil and then became seriously ill from some bad water.

Select water from better sources. High streams are best. Avoid dead animals or other contaminants in or near the water. "In general there is no positive proof of drinkability. " T.B.

Rock boiling may be done without a container or intestine. "Rock boiling can be done in hollowed logs, rock depressions, animal skins, stomachs, or rawhide." T.B. Heat the rocks in a fire until they are glowing red and place them in the liquid filled container with tongs made from bent saplings. "One or two baseball-sized rocks should be enough to bring a gallon of water to a boil...." T.B. Tom says heat dry rocks so they won't explode when heated.

I hope this helps Matthew, and doesn't anger Doc Ron (have your tracking tape Doc :)).

Take care,
bug
 
Originally posted by bruce
I agree that food may not be your most important consideration, but I don't agree that it sould be resigned to a "list". We often think of lists as a device where you start at the top and finish the first item before going on to the second. In a survival situation, you need to work on the whole list at the same time -- dividing your time, strength, and mental capability among the requirements and their immediate needs.
Click to expand...

The key phrase there is "immediate needs". In a situation in which there is reasonable hope of rescue within hours or days I think that the value of the "30 day" rule of thumb for food is that the survivor doesn't need to spend time gathering food when a far more important task is to help your rescuers find you. None of the usual rules of thumb I've ever seen presented...(3 minutes w/o air, 3 hours w/o shelter from extreme cold, 3 days w/o water)...suggest that you, for example, wait three minutes before concerning yourself with air, or ignore your thirst for three days before making water a priority. Its just a matter of helping put your "needs" in perspective.

I'm not sure that we are all invisioning the same kind of survival situation either when we are debating survival advice. Some people seem to almost have a "movie plot" kind of survival situation in their head that they are preparing for. They seem to think that the most likely situaiton is that they are going to become "Grizzly Adams" and have to live off the land for the rest of their life. Obviously if this is the realistic situaiton you are faced with then your priorities change.

Its funny, I keep getting about halfway through a dogmatic statement about what your "number one" priority should be but just about the time I think I've got it I think of a situation in which it wouldn't be true.

Perhaps that's the point that really needs to be made. Every situation is different. You can't necessarily say that any "need" is number one in every situation. (Wouldn't it be worth going without air for a few seconds if you can grab a mirror from your sinking boat or plane? I can think of situations where it certainly could be.)

The original post asked "What good are big bad knives....?" The answer to my way of thinking is that there is no hard and fast answer. All things being equal I'd rather have a knife in a survival situation but realisticly a knife is a luxury that you could easily be deprived of. Your best tool is an educated mind that can improvise based on your knowledge and skills. There are plenty of dead people who have been "well equipped" and not made it and plenty of others who while they may have had little or no equipment, survived because they were smart, flexible and adaptable.
 
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