Recommendation? What grades of steel are too hard to be honed with a 'steel'?

[Phil_H]

Having been brought up in a New Zealand farming community the go-to knife for years has been something similar to a Victory skinning knife, complete with scabbard and steel.

As knife technology and choice has evolved I have sort out lighter knives more suited to my hunting needs. Always present in my pack though is a Bcho, which is just a Mora Companion made under licence and sell in Farm Supply stores here in New Zealand like candy.

Can’t knock them, they do their job and do it well, but in order to get the best performance from them it is always good to have a steel not to far away…..and that’s ok, I am used to carrying a small steel.

Now venturing even further into the knife world I have bought a Cold Steel SRK-C made of SK-5 steel and also have another knife that purports to be made from VG-10.

My question to the forum is, will these two grades of steel respond to being honed with a small hunting steel or am I just going to dull the blade even further? I already have a Fallkniven DC4 on order but I am still interested in which grades of steel are too hard to be honed with a steel and what are the alternatives out in the field.
Cheers
Phil

 

[shane45-1911]

A "sharpening steel" means a lot of different things to different people, and is a generic term for any number of sharpening stone media.

What are you specifically referring to? A ceramic rod? Silicon carbide? Whetstones? Diamond infused stones? Or perhaps you are referring to a honing rod, which really doesn't sharpen at all?

 

[HexY3co]

The steel isn't a sharpener per se. All they do is straighten out a rolled edge mainly on kitchen type knives. Don't know if they even do anything on bushcraft, hunting or edc types.

 

[Phil_H]

Thanks for that quick reply shane45-1911
I accept what you say and my question was 'which grades of steel are too hard to be honed with a steel'
Any sharpening I do is generally at home on a whetstone but I normally carry a small shepards steel with me in the field to just touch up - hone - the blade when it starts to dull. My thoughts are that this would be of little effect on higher grade steels. Thoughts?

Cheers
Phil

 

[gazz98]

Welcome to the forums Phil.

"which grades of steel are too hard to be honed with a steel?" We don't know what the material of your sharpening steel is. Therefore we can't determine what steels it can or can't sharpen. As
Shane mentioned, the term "sharpening steel" is a rather generic term for a length of steel that can either sharpen or hone an edge. Not all "sharpening steels" are the same. A quick search found no info on the Victory sharpening steel. Hex made a good point. It might not even do much sharpening if any.

I don't think anyone can look at your pic and say, "That can sharpen steels of A, B, C, etc"

I use a DMT duo fold diamond stone. Diamond coarse/fine. Much easier to use with the balisong type handles vs the DC4.
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/DMTFWFC/dmt-fwfc-double-sided-diafold-sharpener
Do you need one? No. I would think your DC4 will handle any steel you can buy. The ceramic is synthetic sapphire and of course diamond will cut anything. The biggest problem with the DC4 is that it can be awkward to hold as your sharpen. If you are looking for something compact to use in the field. The DC4 will be fine. Just be careful.

Also, grab some scrap leather (old belt?) and glue it to a piece of wood for a strop. Stropping works wonders in help keeping an edge.

 

[Phil_H]

Ahh! Thanks for that gazz98
I think I am showing my ignorance here....sorry to all for the misunderstanding.

Right, within our farming community one walks into a Farm Supply store and asks for a steel.....and the only question one will be asked is "what size". We are only just learning about diamond encrusted steels and ceramic rods and as such we generally refer to them as such. I have to say I have only recently understood that there are different 'grades of steel' that honing steels - sans diamonds or ceramics - are made of.

Maybe I need to re-phrase my question. Which blade categories will not generally respond to honing with a honing steel made of steel of any grade?

Hope that helps remove some of the confusion.

Cheers
Phil

 

[shane45-1911]

Which blade categories will not generally respond to honing with a honing steel made of steel of any grade?

Phil, sharpening "steels" are typically not made of steel. A sharpening steel is just another term for a sharpening stone (or rod or stick). It can be made of a number of different materials with different abrasive properties (eg, ceramic, diamond, etc. as I mentioned in my first post), as well as different grits.

A honing steel on the other hand, IS made of steel (or may have a layer of abrasive material bonded to it) but it is not used sharpen knives. I suspect that little rod in your first pic is a sharpening hone - but you would not use that to re-sharpen a dull knife. A hone simply re-aligns the edge of a minimally dull blade. So in effect, it is sharpening your knife, but not in the typical sense of removing material from the blade. One does not use a sharpening HONE to sharpen a dull knife. You would use a sharpening STEEL or stone (made of a number of different abrasive materials or compounds and grits, as I already mentioned). A honing steel is usually a rod - think of what chefs use to touch up their minimally dull knives with quick back-and-forth strokes along that rod. But for actual re-sharpening of a dull blade, a chef will use a sharpening stone.

Again, you will need to be more specific with regards to what the abrasive material is on your "steel", and clarify if you are actually referring to a SHARPENING steel or a HONING steel.

Typically, ANY sharpening stone will sharpen ANY steel (eventually). It is just a matter of how long it takes to do so. A diamond steel/stone will be the quickest, as it removes metal the fastest on knives with premium steel or high HRC (hardness) knives. Ceramics are good for low to medium grade steel, or putting a finer edge on an already-sharpened premium steel knife.

 

[Phil_H]

Thank you both shane45-1911 and gazz98 I think between the two of you and my ordering the Fallkniven DC4 the right solution may have been found.

When in the field I am usually just up in the hills above where we live and rarely do I stay out for more than a day at a time. Presently I get by with sharpening my knives before going out and taking a small shepards steel - of unknown quality or steel type - to just hone the blades. I rarely have to deal with more than 3 pig or deer on an outing as that is the limit to what I can recover in one trip, so the low grade knives I have been using, with a bit of touch up from the steel, have served me well to date. It was just on recent outing that I had to fashion a litter to drag two deer off the hill late at night as it was too wet and boggy to get a 4x4 anywhere within a kilometre of where the animals had been shot. This is when I realised I needed to upgrade my knives as the old skinners were not up to the task of dual use. Of course with new knives and better quality steel I need an upgraded honing or sharpening method as well.

All in all I think the Fallkniven DC4 will probably cut it for whichever blade I need to hone or sharpen, and the leather cover it comes in can also serve as a strop. I have always preferred to just hone my blades between sharpening on a whetstone and thusly have always shied away from diamonds. Ceramics have always looked like a good compromise, though in a rod it can be a little delicate for use in the field. The DC4 looks good with diamond on one side and ceramic on the other. I guess it is time to relegate the trusty old shepards steel to the kitchen or workshop and move into the modern world.....

Cheers
Phil

 

[gazz98]

Which blade categories will not generally respond to honing with a honing steel made of steel of any grade?

Honing steels = Honing is just maintaining an edge that is already sharp. A honing steel pushes the edge of the blade back into alignment. This may also be referred to as "folding back the burr."

Sharpening steels = Sharpening on the other hand refers to actually removing material from the blade's edge, usually by grinding it against a sharpening stone.

Honing and sharpening aren't the same thing but people use the term interchangeably.

Your steel, like the pic above, will be made of steel but have a fine, powdered material bonded to the length of steel. It might be ceramic or some other type of man made abrasive. What is bonded to the steel can usually come in different grits. You might find a "fine", "coarse", "extra fine", etc. in addition to various lengths.

We don't know what is bonded/coated on your steel in the pic in your original post.

If you have synthetic sapphires on it (which I'm sure you don't unless it was expensive), it will sharpen anything you have or can buy.

If you have some cheap, generic man made abrasive, you will sharpen your Victory, 10xx, 4xx, type steels with some work. It would struggle with VG10 if I had to guess.

NOTE I just read your last post. Yes. Your DC4 will be superior to any steel (ie, long pointy thing) you have locally. When it arrives, I'd stop carrying the steel in your pic (even though your sheath has a spot for it) and carry the DC4. The DC4 will sharpen any steel you have currently and anything you buy in the future. Perfect for carrying in the field.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

The grooved & plated honing steels from quality makers will sometimes be hardened into the 60s HRC, after which they're plated with chromium, which is also quite hard. Those are the better, more expensive ones. And if using one of those, they ARE capable of removing metal from cutlery hardened into the commonly-available range of mid-to-high 50s HRC. They'll work essentially like a quality hardened file, in that sense. Kitchen knives honed on steels exclusively for many years will always end up with some recurve in the cutting edge profile, which is undeniable evidence that such honing steels can and do remove metal.

Other steels, like polished, chromed steels also from quality makers, will do more to realign rolled edges, rather than remove metal. And the chromium plating will be capable of adding some polish as well.

Sometimes, even with highly wear-resistant blades with a lot of hard carbide content, some benefit can still be had in using a steel to improve sharpness. That can come by realigning a slightly rolled edge or by cleaning up burrs after sharpening, both of which will improve sharpness. But in using wear-resistant, carbide-heavy blade steels on them, there's also a risk and a likelihood the carbides in the blade steel will erode the chromium from the honing steel. The chromium plating on them is less hard than the carbides in the blade steels, so the blade will wear the honing steel, instead of the other way around.

Cheaper kitchen 'steels' sold with inexpensive knife block sets may not be so good, however. They can't really be expected to 'hone' in the true sense, by metal removal. But they can still work to realign rolled edges on the low-alloy stainless blades included with the set. And if they're very worn - and they do seem to wear out faster - they may not do much good at all. The couple examples I've tried, of the cheap ones, tend to get beat up pretty easily, with dents & divots that leave the surface irregular & bumpy. Those tend to do more harm than good, when I've tried them.

 

[Phil_H]

Thank you for that Obsessed with Edges that certainly explains a few things to me. First off the steel that my good wife Sharon has for her kitchen knife set would seem to be of a reasonable quality as her knives are starting to develop that recurve. That said I am in charge of all dishwashing and I am excessive in honing them as in everytime I wash them. That would also further explain why I go many months between having to consider putting them across a whetstone as they are always so sharp.....and yet they get a lot of use....Sharon spends a lot of time in the kitchen.

I doubt though that the small shepards steel I use on my low quality steel skinners is of good quality....sufficient to realign the edge on the skinners but possibly not much else. But all said, these low quality steels are quite sufficient for the low quality knives they sharpen. Farmers here tend to work on the basis that they lose knives so easily and often in the environment that they work that they only wish to invest the minimum amount in a blade that will get the job done.....and the Victory skinners and the Bacho, or Mora Companion fit the bill really well and for all intents and purposes, they do the job. These same knives are common sight on hunters here also. They too work on the basis that they won't shed many tears losing a NZD $9 Bacho in the bush as they would if they lost a NZD $280 Fallkniven F1 or a NZD $400 Bark River. I even feel I'm taking a risk with my NZD $89 Cold Steel SRK-C...

It would seem then, that I am on the right track having chosen to purchase a Fallkniven DC4 for use in the field.

Cheers
Phil

 

[scdub]

Now venturing even further into the knife world I have bought a Cold Steel SRK-C made of SK-5 steel and also have another knife that purports to be made from VG-10.

My question to the forum is, will these two grades of steel respond to being honed with a small hunting steel or am I just going to dull the blade even further? I already have a Fallkniven DC4 on order but I am still interested in which grades of steel are too hard to be honed with a steel and what are the alternatives out in the field.

Hi Phil,
It’s not really about the “grade” of the steel but rather how hard it’s tempered and how many/what sized carbides are in the steel.

A honing steel will work fine on a blade made from high grade steel IF the honing steel is at least as hard as the blade (preferably harder).

Most outdoor knives are tempered to somewhere around 60 hrc or below, so I suspect most of them should work with most honing steels. Japanese kitchen knives hardened into the mid 60’s - probably not.

As you seem to already understand, steeling, like stropping, doesn’t take off much material compared to a full sharpening, so there’s definitely value in using them in the field.

SK-5 will almost certainly be fine, and VG-10 has small carbides and will probably steel well if not too hard.

Happily there’s a pretty easy way to find out: just see if your blades dig in to the steel or not.

Using very light pressure, and a slightly higher angle than you would hone at, simply see if the edge will bite into the honing rod. If yes - it’s too hard to steel with that rod. If it skates off, that indicates that the rod is harder than the knife and should work fine.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Not to complicate things more...... Or, actually clarify things all together.

This is what I think of as sharpening/honing steels. It's an ole-time tool. been around for ages.
I use it for all sorts of things.
This model is recreated by a BF member/maker here.

GST Gossman Survival Tool large

This is a multi purpose sharpening tool. It's 6" long, 1" wide, .200" thick D2 steel. The flats are textured to use for sharpening/honing edged tools. One side is rounded to use like a butcher steel. The other side is squared for scraping and striking a ferro rod. One end is wedged for splitting...

shop.gossmanknives.com

It's Not the steel of the blade you need to think about, but it's Hardness.
What Hardness of blade steels are you wanting cleaned up?

 

[Phil_H]

Yes, Crag the Brewer , the Grossman tool is something that I have already considered and am waiting a reply to an email I sent them enquiring of shipping costs. Unfortunately, depending on what method goods are sent around the world.....especially in post-covid where costs have gone through the roof.....it often makes importing small items uneconomical. I am hoping I can get my hands on one without breaking the bank.

Cheers
Phil

 

[311climber]

i get that we have classified honing steels as something different than shapening steels, but both types do remove metal from the knife, just the honing steel puts a microbevel on the edge vs aligning the edge. todd wrote an article on it and all of his articles are worth a read.

what does steeling do.

i wonder how hard typical honing steels are? guessing over that 60 rockwell number if it cuts the steel that is

 

[garry3]

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1

It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”

scienceofsharp.com

 

[RadialBladeworks]

Having been brought up in a New Zealand farming community the go-to knife for years has been something similar to a Victory skinning knife, complete with scabbard and steel.

As knife technology and choice has evolved I have sort out lighter knives more suited to my hunting needs. Always present in my pack though is a Bcho, which is just a Mora Companion made under licence and sell in Farm Supply stores here in New Zealand like candy.

Can’t knock them, they do their job and do it well, but in order to get the best performance from them it is always good to have a steel not to far away…..and that’s ok, I am used to carrying a small steel.

Now venturing even further into the knife world I have bought a Cold Steel SRK-C made of SK-5 steel and also have another knife that purports to be made from VG-10.

My question to the forum is, will these two grades of steel respond to being honed with a small hunting steel or am I just going to dull the blade even further? I already have a Fallkniven DC4 on order but I am still interested in which grades of steel are too hard to be honed with a steel and what are the alternatives out in the field.
Cheers
Phil

Honing steels are not picky about the steel, they are only picky about hardness. You could hone Rex 121... assuming you hardened it to, say, 58 rockwell–which would be a tremendous waste.

Many Japanese culinary blades are made from very simple steels but you cannot hone them because they are 62-65 rockwell, meaning they'll chip before they roll (predominantly because extreme hardness is much nicer for the sharpening process, something of which is major consideration for "proper" Japanese cutlery, especially sashimi stuff).

Most powdered steels from a factory are probably not good prospect for your steeling rod because although these steels tend to be run softer for a number of reasons, like 58-60hrc, their carbide makeup still renders them more likely to chip under an aggressive apex realignment

So no super hard simple steels, generally any stainless, especially hard stainless, save for simple stainless like 14C28N, and AEB-L, maybe CPM 154, definitely not VG-10 despite its fine carbides.

Honing is a western cutlery tradition. German and French cutlery tended to be made of softer steel, but retained minimal BTE thickness, giving the blade good overall geometry. Since minimized geometry is the largest factor for cutting performance,  by miles, you could have a softer blade with thin geometry and basically never have to sharpen it. If the apex was soft enough to roll, you could chopchopchop away and then give your apex a quick steeling to restore cutting performance. The lack of available natural sharpening stones in Europe versus Japan had a large impact on the development of this cutlery philosophy.

Generally speaking, today, all of our cutlery is done to such a high standard (except for Walmart-grade X50, etc) that honing will provide you with very little return for your effort. You would be considerably better off buying either a DMT diamond honing (read: sharpening) rod, or a ceramic honing (read: microbeveling) rod.

If you simply must utilize a honing steel, stick to any steel you want that is appropriately soft (honestly, quite soft, like under 60 rockwell) and ideally simpler steels. Honing is the realigning of the matrix steel which is inherently more liable to chip as the carbide distribution grows denser and larger

 

[Phil_H]

Thanks for that RadialBladeworks , way over my head and possibly over thinking it for my situation out in the field, though I did find it very interesting and I am sure others here will gain a lot from it. Please don't take that as unkind, as I did ask and I really appreciate your reply.

For myself, I have decided in the interim to go with a Fallkniven DC4. I enquired of the Gossman GST, which I love the simplicity novel approach, but unfortunately the cost of shipping to New Zealand makes this prohibitive.....I can purchase 4 x DC4's here in New Zealand for the cost of purchasing one GST and shipping it here. And at the end of the day.....I'm sounding like Jared now.........I am only trying to keep a Cold Steel SRK-C sharp in the field, though other knives may follow.....can't be that hard surely?

Cheers
hil

 

[Spey]

The steel isn't a sharpener per se. All they do is straighten out a rolled edge mainly on kitchen type knives. Don't know if they even do anything on bushcraft, hunting or edc types.

HexY3co,
I straighten maligned edges on bushcraft (and all knives as needed) by steeling the edge back into shape. At some point in future (next sharpening, etc.), the edge should be distressed prior to sharpening to removed fatigued metal.

To All,
I find the hardness, composition, etc. of the steel has little to do with the effectiveness of the procedure of steeling an edge back into alignment. Use the steel to press the roll back into shape. Either by moving the steel along the edge, or moving the edge along the steel whilst watching how the light plays off the roll as method to see when a roll has been effectively straightened.

 

[RadialBladeworks]

Thanks for that RadialBladeworks , way over my head and possibly over thinking it for my situation out in the field, though I did find it very interesting and I am sure others here will gain a lot from it. Please don't take that as unkind, as I did ask and I really appreciate your reply.

For myself, I have decided in the interim to go with a Fallkniven DC4. I enquired of the Gossman GST, which I love the simplicity novel approach, but unfortunately the cost of shipping to New Zealand makes this prohibitive.....I can purchase 4 x DC4's here in New Zealand for the cost of purchasing one GST and shipping it here. And at the end of the day.....I'm sounding like Jared now.........I am only trying to keep a Cold Steel SRK-C sharp in the field, though other knives may follow.....can't be that hard surely?

Cheers
hil

Hahah no offense taken. I am notorious for over answering. I need to remember to just put my simple answer at the start.

I think the DC4 is a great choice for field honing and it'll be very happily paired with your SK-5 steel