What happened to attention to detail?

D

D. Epstein

Joined
Oct 17, 1999
Messages
98
Over the last few weeks I have bought five new knives from some of the top manufacturers, including one very expensive custom knife. Without exception they have had uneven grind lines, visible grinding marks on the flat of the blades, uneven parkerizing or powder coating, and in one case a bent blade for God's sake.

Looking back at some knives that I bought many years ago I notice no such thing. I admit that the knives seem to be much sharper out of the box now, but knives can be sharpened. You can't get rid of these cosmetic flaws so easily, however.

Maybe it's partly because of online ordering. The companies think we'll just say the hell with it and accept the defects rather than hassling with a return.

Considering that I buy knives mostly just to look at, this is really annoying.

Has anyone else noticed this trend (if it is a trend)?

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Oderint dum metuant
 
My suggestion is that now it's time to annoy them, send them back. It's the only way to get the message across.

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LD
"Every Dog Has His Day"
BFC Member Since October 2, 1998

 
Indeed I have! But I don't think it has anything to do with the Internet. I think it tracks with the general decline in our civilization's work ethic/personal pride in skills on the shop floor. It's a sign of overall cultural collapse.

Years ago it was culturally/sociologically OK not to go to college--to go instead into a trade and, holding up your head as a craftsman, to carve out a life-nitch for yourself as a master. "I finished high school [that meant Latin and German and Trig and Civics], I have a wife and kids who love me, I'm a deacon at my church, and I can run a lathe better than anybody in Chesky County . ."

Today everybody goes to college, whether they can read or not, get degrees in things they used to learn in life (business admin., farm management, etc.) and then, for cryin' out loud, generally look down on "mere" labor, among whom is an older generation who have both more skills in their respective trades AND more education!

Consequently only the truly down and out are ending up in the manufacturing trades these days.

I know I've painted with a broad brush here, but I think these generalities are sound.

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Bill

Unfortunate but Increasingly Necessary Disclaimer:

While this post likely contains incorrect information, fuzzy logic, poor grammar and misspelled words, what it does not contain is intentional malevolence toward anyone.




[This message has been edited by Uncle Bill (edited 19 November 1999).]
 
As a Math Instructor at a state University, also agree with Uncle Bill. My Pop was a carpenter and furniture restorer, and I grew up learning how to build things. It is clear that many of my students have very little practical knowledge of this type. They try to do the least amount possible to "get by". I pity their future employers, provided they find one. :-)

Of course, I am generalizing quite a bit, too, and I must confess that I do have a select few in every class that are great students. I just wish they would rub off on their classmates!

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Chris Turner
Arkansas

"We Don't Rent Pigs" --Augustus McCrae

"I won't abide rude behavior in a man." -- Woodrow Call

 
Caution- long semi-coherent ramble follows:

I think that custom knives in particular are suffering from price competition from factories. A lot (volume-wise) of the current "custom" market is in series produced "models". These are largly folders but also some fixed blades. These are almost a semi-production piece, and involve issues of subcontractor management, shedule management, design for manufacturability, and quality control as much as craftmanship. In general, these pieces are bead blasted for practical and stealth? purposes, and make hand finishing less important. The effect has been to drive down the entry price for a custom knife.

The factories, seeing the market for bead blasted knives, made in whatever the cool materials are for that month, have leapt on the bandwagon. These factories of course, apply all the resources at their disposal, and are able to make a competing piece that can be sold for 1/5 to 1/3 the price of the "custom". To close the gap, the custom maker has to make more knives faster, and sees that the factory can ship a cheap machine applied satin finish, so he does the same. Custom makers are now setting up to tumble deburr parts. The mind boggles.

We find ourselves in a position where the gap between customs and factory knives is getting smaller and smaller. This is probably a good thing in a lot of ways. The current knife purchaser has a variety of designs, models and materials available that would shock the knife buyer of 100 years ago. Unfortunately though, the pressure to produce tends to drive the quest for perfection out of the low end of the custom market. Frankly, I see things for sale at knife shows which amaze me. Bud Lang has even complained in KI about the quality of knives shown at the Guild show.

It seems to me that the custom knife should offer the customer something more than just a good knife, the factories can provide a good knife. There should be real craftmanship, and some level of exclusivity, to justify the premium the custom maker must charge. Personally, I've worked in manufacturing all my life, but I'm much happier practising the craft of knifemaking. I will resist seeing it turn into just another manufacturing job.

Or maybe I just shouldn't have had that last cup of coffee.
smile.gif


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Matt Harildstad
Knifemaker
www.planet.eon.net/~matth
matth@planet.eon.net

 
Matt, very well put! I think D. Epstein should return those five knives, for replacements or a refund. Somehow upper management, or Q&A need to be reminded about integrity, business ethics, etc. I would die of shame, if I sent out a knife with the flaws thoses knives had.
Jay Maines www.sunrisecustomknives.com

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Quality, and pride in one's work, in general are not the norm. We are a throw-away society, rather than fix it. So, we come to expect less, complain less, and manufacturers know that. Look at the auto industry. Better yet, look at our Politicians, can anyone name a real Leader, in recent memory?

In a Custom or a Handmade knife, it should be totally unacceptable. In fact it's kind of an insult to the Buyers intelligence. I would call the maker, and ask, "Is this the kind of work I can expect from you?" If the answer is "Yes!" I would say, "Fine, it's on it's way back to you, I expect an Immediate refund, it's not the quality of work I'm interested in." I would make a point to post at the Forums, what this maker considered acceptable work. If I had just waited months for that knife, I probably wouldn't be so nice.
 
My brother ran a factory with superb quality control, and it didn't depend on the workers' pride in craftsmanship. It's easy enough if that's what you want to do -- just set whatever standards you want and set up a quality control department to inspect the products and reject those that fall short. (Of course you have to let them do that; many factories used to have a problem because they put the head of quality control under the production head, and the production head could order him to stop rejecting so many marginal products so he could get better production statistics to show his boss what a good job he was doing. Most factories are not set up that way any more, though.)

If my brother's customers had been willing to pay the same price for lower quality, though, he would have given it to them -- he had stockholders to answer to.

Pride in craftsmanship might have some effect on the quality control of custom makers, but it really has nothing to do with the quality control of mass-produced products; factories don't rely on their workers' pride in what they make. They can produce whatever quality-control level their customers want and are willing to pay for, and do it with workers who don't have the slightest pride in what they make. My brother's factory manufactured paper ... some of his workers did take pride in making the best paper they could, but most of them didn't care one way or the other; if they'd been told to speed up the production line and not worry so much about quality ... it's all the same to them, whatever the boss wants....

If customers are willing to pay the same price for less, if they accept defective products and don't send them back, that's what they'll get.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Here is a quote from the man that taught the Japanese Quality Control after the war.
"Price has no meaning, without a measure of the quality" Deming


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A.T.
http://www.customknives.com
 
QC dept. are extremely vital but quality goes back to accountability and solid "foolproof" processes. For example, the man who just cut the parts on the burn table should be doing first cut inspection and %tage inspection after. You can't "inspect" in quality you can only react to defects. I think it does come down to having pride in and being accountable for the quality of your work and having the proper equipment, training, and procedures available. I guess this all mainly applies to production knives.
 
I pride myself in my work. I also realize I am not a perfect man. Mistakes can be made. If I have a customer who is unhappy I want to do everything necessary to make them happy. If that means replacing a knife, repairing or just refunding money - I do it. My customers feed my family (and my need to make knives). I need and want to keep them happy.
I would definitely recommend returning the knives and asking for replacements or money back.
For the custom knife - talk to the maker. Most want to fix anything that's wrong. You can't keep (or get new) customers if you don't take pride in your work.

Just my two cents...


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I Carry My Crosses for Christ to Give any Glory to God.
centercross.com
geneosborn@centercross.com
Fort Worth, TX

 
Centercross, you nailed it "pride in your work"

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A.T.
http://www.customknives.com
 
Remember you are the consumer if you are unhappy with the producd you recieved send it back,let the knife maker know what you want corrected.I have never had an occasion where my requests have not been satisfied by a custom maker.If is a production knife return the product,request a refund or at least a reselection.You never have to be satisified with less than your expections.If these expectations are not met.Spend you money elsewhere.I have been collecting knive for 30 years and find better quality, a wider varity of styles ,but ther is also alot more junk.Isn't the search and research in a knife purchase part of the enjoyment?
 
I think our society in general is creating some poor work ethics and poor craftsmanship.
Trying to hire people who pride themselves in an honest days work and who would be proud to say "I made that" is next to impossible to find.

However, I consider Custom knife makers as a small society unto itself. And I have a hard time believing that this would be a trend. I'm sure there may be some lazy makers who need a wake up call from time to time, and this would be a great time for a wake up call. Make sure and let them know of your displeasure. If they can't fix or replace it, make sure you get your money back.

Every society needs to seperate it's Men from it's Boys. The custom knife society needs to weed out it's non-performers. I personally don't think this will happen very often because custom makers need custom-ers.

I hope every unhappy customer of mine, for what ever reason, lets me know so that I can make them a happy customer.

I think you need to at least give him a chance to make it right.

John Yeackley
 
You should be made happy on all of the knives you purchased. Contact the makers (factory or custom). Tell them the problem. See if they offer to fix it, or make it right, in some other way. If they don't offer, then you suggest it. Just be polite with them, and expect them to behave the same. It is the best interest of both, them and you, to make you happy with your purchase. I am sure you should have no problem, getting the situation corrected.

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Lynn Griffith
Available knives now listed on
My website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
Hi Guys...

I agree with what everyone is saying, but being an artist first,,then a sheath manufacturer,, sometimes minor flaws show up.
It happens,, and this (Sometimes) is a sign of hand workmanship.
Now if the workmanship is crappy to begin with,well then theres a problem,, if it's major then it's a BIG problem.

As with my art, I do the absolute best job I can possibly do.Sometimes I make a mistake,, and the whole thing gets trashed,,because (I) don't like it.
Most people wouldn't even notice it.

But when making sculptures in the $10,000 to $20,000 price range,, you want to make bloody well damn sure it's done proper and it's going to cause you or more importantly you customer problems a few years down the road.

After making a piece like this,, if I'm in the area,, I will pop in now and then and inspect the piece and make sure that it is still in the same condition it was when it left my studio.If it isn't I will fix it,because,,it reflects on my work, and it is a part of me!

Once and awhile a bad one will go out,,if there is a problem and a customer comes back to me,, I'll deal with it right then and there. If I don't,, that customer is lost forever!
After spending money like that,, I guess I owe them that much!

So understand that not everything is perfect,,especially when it's hand made.
If you don't like it,,voice your opinion..
You should be satisfied when everything is said and done!

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel


 
This is an interesting thread. The questions raised seem to me to be very complex.

I agree that work ethics have declined. Part of this is due to a sort of growing laziness but another part of it has to do with want.

We want it now and we want it cheap.

For instance, I spent 10 years working as a mechanic. The question was always: do you want it fixed right (wait and spend the money) or do you want it fixed quickly (do a makeshift repair and save a lot of dough in labor and parts costs). You'd be surprised how many opt for the second.

And then there is greed, i.e., do the makeshift repair and charge the customer as if you fixed it right. Also common if not the norm.

Are we more lazy than we used to be? Are we greedier than we used to be? Do we want more and more and more (this from a knife addict?!).

I think there is a good plenty of craftsmanship out there. We just have to be careful and realistic consumers. The commonplace tradition of excellence and craftsmanship is gone but it still survives in pockets. There are still honorable people who take pride in what they do.



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Hoodoo

Doubt grows with knowledge.
--Goethe
 
I grapple with stuff like this a lot not only as a consumer, but as a sometimes very opinionated hobbyist and also in my work, as I've pretty much worked in the quality field for over 20 years. I tend to be a traditionalist in some areas but can also appreciate 'elegance', which to me is an almost artful blend of form and function, tradition be dammed.

I think that the biggest driving force in the state of our products is the consumer society that we've created, where it seems that what people of all walks want most of all is MORE, and where seemingly no matter what the product consumers will demand higher tech, faster, bigger, more colors, etc., in some cases no matter what the cost and in most cases at the lowest cost. If you find yourself complaining about quality or the cost of quality a lot you might find that what is happening is that the water is rising, it's getting deep, and lots of people around you have much bigger boats. If you want a very functional knife at a good price there are lots of good choices, but if you want cosmetics in the form of unique and perhaps difficult to make designs with lots of hand finishing you should be prepared to pay a lot, and if you're buying in a high demand and especially a speculative market buyer beware. A market driven by demand for performance or for form may tend to be less forgiving for makers as the consumer demands are clear, but where the demands aren't clear and where a mass market is developing and creating lots of cost pressures perceived quality can often suffer.

I drove motorcyles for over 20 years and am still amazed at how much performance one can get for one's money. A state of the art crotch rocket will do +170 mph, the 1/4 mile in the low tens, 0 to 60 in under 3 three seconds, offer excellent handling and braking, literally off the showroom floor. A few year back in a 24hr race in Europe the winning bike was driven from Italy, run in the race, and then driven back home. The common joke when watching newbies wobbling away on their new bikes is zero to dead in five seconds flat :^) There is little in the way of wishing for the stuff like they use to make it, even with Harleys, a bike that is pure appeal to tradition, as few current owners would put up with much of what I can remember 20 to 30 years ago, collectors and some traditionalists like myself aside. In fact with modern computerized designs and machining it would be hard to duplicate a lot of designs with 'good old fashioned handmade parts'. With knives there are perhaps fewer clear measures of performance, instead it's more like what I see in my optical hobbies where everything is a conflicting bunch of tradeoffs. What really makes a mess of things are demands for what I call 'eye candy', as cosmetics in a lot of cases ends up confounding peformance.

In short I think that there are lots of good products, many with excellent performance and finishing, but the cost of such products is often getting higher than most people realize.
 
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