What I learned today

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

I went on an 18 mile kayak trip today with my dad and brother and decided to do a little experiment. I always read about how the "Ideal Bushcrafter" can do every chore necessary with a ~3inch blade. From what I read in the wilderness and survival forum here it seems like if you bring anything more than a mora you are being inefficient and need to learn better technique.

Im used to carrying a 5-7inch fixed blade (RMD, Regulator etc..) along with a big chopper whenever I hit the trail. The extra weight doesn't bother me at all and I always think if there's any kind of weight I dont mind carrying, its a knife.

I decided to see if I could get the job done on the kayaking trip with only a small fixed blade. I grabbed my rodent solution and set out.

The entire trip i felt horribly underknifed. If I ever got in a self defense situation, a knife is my go to weapon and I felt powerless with such a small blade. There are some scary red neck folk where we went, (you know, people who sit around and drink all day just look to cause trouble).

Anyways in terms of self defense, I felt completely naked. Im used to having a Junglas strapped to my leg or a Waki to my back. Not to mention if we were in bear country I couldn't imagine hitting the trail with only one small blade.

When it came time to make a fire I realized my usual technique of chopping off dead branches and batoning them into finger sized then making feather sticks wasn't going to be an option.

trying to split sticks with a 3.5 inch blade sucks. I couldn't get a fire going and ended up using my brothers Dogfather to make the fire

Moral of the story, I don't know about all these expert bushcrafter people but I don't hit the woods without a Big chopper and a solid utility knife. I would probably die in the wilderness if all I was given was a mora.

What do you guys usually carry when you hit the river/trail?

 

[jbob24]

I'm with you bro

I think it's great if those guys can make do with just a little 3" blade (honestly I can too) but I'd just as soon have my junglas, m9, cgfbm or rucki with me also. Its more fun

 

[foxx]

I see a truth to both sides. Sometimes it is just technique, like bend over a sapling, and cut it with a small knife. You'll still get the job done.

SD aside, I see it as a valuable exercise to be able to do bushcraft, or at least camp chores with a small knife. What if you lose your chopper?

Practice making wood wedges to help split larger wood. It's really about knowledge and skill, not the tool. Early man survived with sharpened rocks, so it's more than possible to be creative and adapt to the situation.

I do enjoy carrying a large knife, I own a Waki as well, they are fun, and probably great for SD. But, just for camping, I go light, and I'm still kicking.

 

[Guyon]

Couple of points.
1) If you're planning to fight drunk rednecks with a knife, you're planning wrong. More than likely, if you pull a knife, they'll pull a gun. Knife fighting is ugly business. Avoid it. As for fighting a bear with a knife, well... it looks good on the big screen, I guess. I sure wouldn't want to do it, no matter how big the knife. Frankly, a large knife has a lot less maneuverability in close quarters, and I doubt a bear is going to stand 3-4 feet away from you and fight fair.
2) A small blade should be plenty with alternate techniques. Push come to shove, you can cut wedges and split larger logs. As mentioned, you can bend saplings and cut them at the base under tension. The fire doesn't have to look perfect. You can feed in longer branches as they burn. And so on.
It's good to know and practice alternate techniques for the times you don't have a big chopper. It's more likely you'll have a small knife on you at all times unless you pack a Junglas 24/7.

My kayaking kit held a stainless Mora. I just got a Spyderco Aqua Salt to take its place. Either knife is adequate to essential bushcraft.

.

 

[jonj480]

KalEl, I am with you. I end up carrying two. Most typically it is my Junglas and my RMD. I will be rotating my M9 in as soon as I get a sheath for it.

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

Couple of points.
1) If you're planning to fight drunk rednecks with a knife, you're planning wrong. More than likely, if you pull a knife, they'll pull a gun. Knife fighting is ugly business. Avoid it. As for fighting a bear with a knife, well... it looks good on the big screen, I guess. I sure wouldn't want to do it, no matter how big the knife. Frankly, a large knife has a lot less maneuverability in close quarters, and I doubt a bear is going to stand 3-4 feet away from you and fight fair.
2) A small blade should be plenty with alternate techniques. Push come to shove, you can cut wedges and split larger logs. As mentioned, you can bend saplings and cut them at the base under tension. The fire doesn't have to look perfect. You can feed in longer branches as they burn. And so on.
It's good to know and practice alternate techniques for the times you don't have a big chopper. It's more likely you'll have a small knife on you at all times unless you pack a Junglas 24/7.

My kayaking kit held a stainless Mora. I just got a Spyderco Aqua Salt to take its place. Either knife is adequate to essential bushcraft.

.

A knife is obviusly not the beat self defense tool but the area where I went today guns are illegal to carry and I ALWAYS have a knife on me even when I sleep if I'm camping/ out in the woods. And that's what makes drunk rednecks all the more intimidating, a lot of them do have guns, are drunk, and don't give a crap. Its stupid that you can't carry a gun on federal land.

And if you can use just a mora and get by I applaud you. That takes a great amount of skill. I have a lot to learn and would like to get to the point where I could get by with just a single small knife but my kayak trip taught me how dependent I am on larger blades.

 

[Allcaps321]

I think people have confused using technique-to-get-by with efficiency. A 3" blade is a lot less efficient for a lot of tasks, you can with certain techniques get by with one.

 

[kimberfan]

i'd want atleast a RMD size knife or my RMD lol

 

[geckoblink]

When it came time to make a fire I realized my usual technique of chopping off dead branches and batoning them into finger sized then making feather sticks wasn't going to be an option.

trying to split sticks with a 3.5 inch blade sucks. I couldn't get a fire going and ended up using my brothers Dogfather to make the fire

Where do you live/where did you go? I've never come across brush where a 3-4" blade couldn't procure and process wood for a fire - I'm not saying a larger blade/hatchet wouldn't have been easier, mind. Even in Malaysia a machete/parang is more for cutting a path through the jungle and not required for fire.

A few months ago I picked up an ESEE 3 and it's my go to knife for most tasks these days. I actually stepped down in size from a Fallkniven S1 because I felt that it was unnecessary for my area (New England forest). That said, when I do head out I'm usually alone, so I don't need to process a 10" log or anything like that.

It comes down to what you personally work best with, but my reasons for using a smaller knife boils down to the following:

- My hands are somewhat small; the ESEE 3 could stand to have a slightly longer handle for self-defense purposes (it just barely protrudes from the bottom of my hand), but as a bushcraft blade it has performed very well. I can use larger blades/machetes but I prefer smaller ones.

- Scouts taught me to be as low impact as possible, meaning if you can gather dead wood without cutting anything that's the best route to go for environmental reasons.

- Batoning really multiplies the ability of a small blade, to the point where you can chop through thick wood with practice.

- It's easier to carry two so if one breaks you're not down to just a folder or something really small. Most people don't carry two large blades, do they? Maybe this is the wrong place to ask that question . . .

- I normally carry a folding saw and/or hatchet in the event that I need to tackle something substantial/cut a cross-section. Admittedly a larger blade could serve this role far better than a small blade could be, but I don't think it'd be quite as efficient (feel free to tear me a new one here if I'm wrong).


At any rate, I'm currently ogling a Rodent Solution.

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

I really enjoy using a small knife for fine work but when I was making a fire on the river shore all the driftwood was caked in mud and everything else was wet so I found myself in a situation where I needed to split some sticks to obtain dry/ non mud caked wood.

Now you don't need a huge blade to chop/split. My RMD, which is 5.3 inches can do light chopping and medium splitting tasks very well but the RS has no chopping capability at all and is difficult to split with. And a mora or a similar bushcraft style knife would have even less chopping ability and zero splitting ability.

I guess I'm just spolied by the ease of using a chopper. Its quick and simple to jusy blast through the wood, get to the dry center, make a few feather sticks and be cooking in no time.

Before I got into knives I never needed a knife to start a fire. Now, aside from matches and cotton balls, its the most important tool for making a fire.

 

[cut it out]

I kinda agree with ya, I like my RS and camp tramp or battle rat combo. just the best of both worlds. If its just one knife the RMD or Camp tramp for me. I also like the Izula and RC-6 combo. the more I spend in the woods the more I love big blades!

 

[Bigfattyt]

I just went on a 2 day canoe trip with about 12 kids (all in the 13-17 year old range) and 4 adults.

I went "light" and only packed a BAD (3.5 inch blade) and a SarQ (about a 6 ish inch blade). I found my self wishing I had brought my B11 or even KZII. One guy brought a folding saw (the tiny ones that fit in your back pocket).

The SarQ did all right with the smaller stuff, but for the weight, I could have packed the B11. The only reason I did not is that the BAD and the SarQ are the only ones I have Kydex for. The rest have leather, and I was not too keen on getting my leather all sandy and wet!
Some Canoes pulled out for the night for day one.

SarQ. That little mound of mud in the back ground is where I was standing when I caught a cat fish. Little 7 incher I threw back. The next morning, one of the guys caught about a 22-24" catfish. There was a fat trout the next morning that kept mocking my bait. I was standing above him dangling the bait right under his nose. He would just act like he was going to bite, then move around it.

4 guys in this little tent. I could have pitched the other nice one, all to my self, but was told there were only going to be three of us in this tent. Oops, by the time we figured out there it was a little cramped, it was about 11pm.

Two of the kids bringing up the back of the pack. They spent more time sideways and backwards than forwards on this trip (the kid in the front, it was his first canoe trip).

Here we are at the toughest turn. The river takes a hard turn, back on it's self. Part wants to go straight through the dead trees, and pin you against them. We waited here for a while to direct the kids through. Some of them took 10 minutes to make it through! Had a couple of near swampings, and such.

After watching the turn for a while we figured out how to make a perfect run without getting pinned or hung up.

 

[foxx]

That guy's face looks crazy on the last pic. The only drop of water on the lens covers his face, it reminds me of "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas".

 

[Bigfattyt]

That guy's face looks crazy on the last pic. The only drop of water on the lens covers his face, it reminds me of "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas".

Oh, not a drop of water, it is actually just intentionally distorted. I will put my own pic up occasionally, but try to avoid putting other's online. He was the dad of one of the kids on the trip.

 

[XanRa]

That guy's face looks crazy on the last pic. The only drop of water on the lens covers his face, it reminds me of "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas".

About died laughing on that one

 

[chiral.grolim]

1) If you're planning to fight drunk rednecks with a knife, you're planning wrong. ... As for fighting a bear with a knife, well... it looks good on the big screen, I guess. I sure wouldn't want to do it, no matter how big the knife. Frankly, a large knife has a lot less maneuverability in close quarters, and I doubt a bear is going to stand 3-4 feet away from you and fight fair.
2) A small blade should be plenty with alternate techniques. Push come to shove, you can cut wedges and split larger logs. As mentioned, you can bend saplings and cut them at the base under tension. The fire doesn't have to look perfect. You can feed in longer branches as they burn. And so on.
It's good to know and practice alternate techniques for the times you don't have a big chopper. It's more likely you'll have a small knife on you at all times unless you pack a Junglas 24/7.

My kayaking kit held a stainless Mora. I just got a Spyderco Aqua Salt to take its place. Either knife is adequate to essential bushcraft.

Also a couple of observations, but I'll put them in context of a reply to the above post:

1) I don't think anyone plans to fight "rednecks" with a knife (maybe Chuck Norris?), but the psychological security provided by the bigger blade, while a crutch, can be a boon; and in a real-life scenario, it affords an intimidation factor for less assertive attackers. As for the bear, blade finesse with a scalpel (i.e. smaller, more 'maneuverable' blade) is of little help when a blow sufficient to repel or disable the attacker requires significant penetration depth, and especially when every inch of proximity increases risk of severe injury to yourself. If you are within close enough quarters to do damage with a little Mora, maneuverability of the blade is moot! Whereas a longer blade has a longer reach, i.e. it can keep the attacker (man or beast) at bay by doing serious injury without allowing the attacker within closer proximity to injure you - the longer the range, the better (safer)! If the attacker has already disabled your ability to wield that Junglas or whatnot, what are the chances that you are able to wield your tiny blade effectively in time to save your life?

2) A small blade is sufficient when resources are plentiful and easily accessible, time & calories are plentiful, and conditions are relatively fair. When "push comes to shove" there may be NO branches within a safe vicinity to cut into wedges for splitting larger logs and those logs may be seasoned hardwood, you may be running out of light and the temperature may be dropping, etc. In such a case, the small blade is sufficient to not provide you with a fire, so you make do which you could have done just as easily without any knife This is not a bizarre scenario, I have found myself in the above conditions and was very thankful to have my Catt225Q handy to break up that log and have a nice fire within minutes v.s. going without as would have been the case with only the knife my father-in-law was carrying at the time.

But I agree, it is a very good idea to practice and improve you technique at all sorts of tasks using less-than-optimal tools (or no tools at all). That way if you lose or forget the larger knife (or whatnot), you aren't SOL. Such skills are the essence of woodcraft/scouting/outdoor living. Then, any knife "is adequate to essential bushcraft".

When I'm away from civilization, I carry a medium fixed-blade (like the RMD) and a small multitool.

 

[geckoblink]

I'm not trying to be snide, but I don't think I've ever seen an area with logs but no branches, excepting Home Depot.

When push comes to shove, you can can gather and process wood under pretty much any circumstance with almost any size blade. I don't think anyone is arguing that there are no situations where a large blade would not be more efficient than a small one. If I ever get caught in a snow storm and I need fire now, now, now, I'll pull out the hatchet.

Honestly the best argument I can think of for a larger knife versus a smaller knife in terms of wood processing in an extreme environment (e.g. very cold) would simply be ease of handling. I'd rather not be hammering in a 3.5" inch blade just right, making sure I have enough tip on the other side, and making sure it doesn't get wedged too tightly. When it's really cold and I've got gloves on, a larger knife would be a benefit. For more precise work I can tuck the handle under my arm/armpit and handle the spine of the blade if it is long enough. And of course, simply by nature of being heavier it'll be easier to baton through wood.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I'm not trying to be snide, but I don't think I've ever seen an area with logs but no branches, excepting Home Depot.

When push comes to shove, you can can gather and process wood under pretty much any circumstance with almost any size blade. ...

It's alright. I was taking my father- & brother-in-law on a quick backpacking trip (3 nights) in the Kettle Morraine State Forest (nearest location where I could take them and get them back in time with their schedules). Visitors are only allowed to bivy at specific sites (which must be reserved in advance), so I payed the money. By the time I got them out of the city and into the forest that day, the sun had already set and the temperature was dropping - but I didn't want to give up a single day in the forest, I'd been hassling them to go on the trip for too long for that. I took them along the trail by our fading light, then up a slope to the top of a bluff and the designated site. There were tall oaks up there, so i figured there'd be plenty of fuel for a fire, didn't bother gathering along the way. When we reached the top and started to get set-up for a hot meal and firelight as the temperature dropped and our light was gone, we took flashlights to scour for fuel...

I searched a twenty yard radius around the site and found nothing but wet leaves (it had rained all day), thick live buck-brush, poison ivy, and tall oaks whose nearest branches were twenty feet up! NO branches on the ground to be found, only a thick, old, hard oak log (stripped of bark) that had obviously been left by all the campers that had passed this way before us and could not make use of it as fuel - those campers probably exhausted all the fuel in the nearby vicinity already... This was an unexpected occurrence, of course. The search for fuel had already taken some time, further efforts increased the possibility of injury (rambling around in the dark amidst the brush atop a hill), and we were increasingly cold & hungry. We could have gotten by without a fire, of course - this wasn't a survival scenario, but I had the tools with the potential to make quick work of that single piece of wood, and in minutes i had a pile of kindling and bits of increasing size, and shortly thereafter (via cotton-swab and ferrorod) a nice fire to cook dinner over! Could i have done this with the tiny buck my father-in-law was carrying? He tried and he failed.

My point - given limited resources or restrictive conditions (i.e. "when push comes to shove"), NO one canNOT gather/process fuel with almost any size blade.
But the rest i totally agree with, and a hatchet or junglas would probably have been more efficient. It's good to be prepared. If you aren't prepared to make use of what you find, you best be prepared to go without. *shrug*

 

[Guyon]

I don't think anyone plans to fight "rednecks" with a knife (maybe Chuck Norris?), but the psychological security provided by the bigger blade, while a crutch, can be a boon; and in a real-life scenario, it affords an intimidation factor for less assertive attackers. As for the bear, blade finesse with a scalpel (i.e. smaller, more 'maneuverable' blade) is of little help when a blow sufficient to repel or disable the attacker requires significant penetration depth, and especially when every inch of proximity increases risk of severe injury to yourself. If you are within close enough quarters to do damage with a little Mora, maneuverability of the blade is moot! Whereas a longer blade has a longer reach, i.e. it can keep the attacker (man or beast) at bay by doing serious injury without allowing the attacker within closer proximity to injure you - the longer the range, the better (safer)! If the attacker has already disabled your ability to wield that Junglas or whatnot, what are the chances that you are able to wield your tiny blade effectively in time to save your life?

This is all armchair baloney in my opinion. I'm not sure what a "less assertive attacker" is, but if someone wants your stuff and has more firepower, you'd better be fast on your feet. You can have a samurai sword, and it won't get you far against a .38. As for the bear talk, I was just goofing. If a bear wants to eat you and you don't have some serious pepper spray or a powerful gun, you're dinner. You may be dinner anyway. Swatting a bear with a long blade won't do much other than make it mad, and you better be made of steel if you think you're going to penetrate to its vitals and kill it instantly while it's busy ripping your head off and gnawing on your neck. Anyone who thinks they're "armed for bear" with a Junglas better think again.

A small blade is sufficient when resources are plentiful and easily accessible, time & calories are plentiful, and conditions are relatively fair. When "push comes to shove" there may be NO branches within a safe vicinity to cut into wedges for splitting larger logs and those logs may be seasoned hardwood, you may be running out of light and the temperature may be dropping, etc. In such a case, the small blade is sufficient to not provide you with a fire, so you make do which you could have done just as easily without any knife This is not a bizarre scenario, I have found myself in the above conditions and was very thankful to have my Catt225Q handy to break up that log and have a nice fire within minutes v.s. going without as would have been the case with only the knife my father-in-law was carrying at the time.

But I agree, it is a very good idea to practice and improve you technique at all sorts of tasks using less-than-optimal tools (or no tools at all). That way if you lose or forget the larger knife (or whatnot), you aren't SOL. Such skills are the essence of woodcraft/scouting/outdoor living. Then, any knife "is adequate to essential bushcraft".

I carry a saw or an axe.

 

[chiral.grolim]

This is all armchair baloney in my opinion. I'm not sure what a "less assertive attacker" is, but if someone wants your stuff and has more firepower, you'd better be fast on your feet. You can have a samurai sword, and it won't get you far against a .38.

Oh, yeah, i meant an attacker with no ammunition Otherwise i imagine that scene from "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

As for the bear talk, I was just goofing. If a bear wants to eat you and you don't have some serious pepper spray or a powerful gun, you're dinner. You may be dinner anyway. Swatting a bear with a long blade won't do much other than make it mad, and you better be made of steel if you think you're going to penetrate to its vitals and kill it instantly while it's busy ripping your head off and gnawing on your neck. Anyone who thinks they're "armed for bear" with a Junglas better think again.

Well, mostly... Bears are not all enormous man-eaters, despite what hollywood might have us believe. Remember that Canadian who stabbed a 200lbs black bear to death to save his dog? http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20060722/bear_attack_060722/20060722?hub=TorontoHome
But yes, "fast on your feet" would be my recommendation :thumbup: